Talk:The Prisons Act (644)

Patrick Barber — 08/10/2022
@Assembly Member
Tabled for consideration to the assembly:
The Prisons Act (644)
An act to establish and regulate a national prison system.
https://kodiak.fandom.com/wiki/The_Prisons_Act_(644%29
Proposed by @Reifyrm Visdvk [I] , Independent
Voting is currently earmarked for 29 October 2022
John Edwards [KWP] — 09/10/2022
I know this is half of the original law but ten prisoners per cell still seems like a lot.
Reifyrm Visdvk [I] — 10/10/2022
I agree, however, I wanted to remain conservative unless I could be sure of support for a lower amount.
Klaus Mikaelson — 11/10/2022
10 is far too many
Reifyrm Visdvk [I] — 11/10/2022
It should be kept in mind that is only for holding cells, and that ideally the overwhelming majority of Prisoners will be in individual cells.
Patrick Barber — 11/10/2022
As it was currently written, if memory serves correctly - the entire prison system is only holding cells. Massive rooms with bunk beds. Like American jails from that TV show a while back.\
Reifyrm Visdvk [I] — 11/10/2022
That's rather unsanitary in conjunction to being inhumane.
John Edwards [KWP] — 12/10/2022
The default often is.
Klaus Mikaelson — 13/10/2022
"ideally" isn't exactly a legal term. 😛 Plus, holding cells can be used for a fairly decent period of time in different instances and locations
Reifyrm Visdvk [I] — 19/10/2022
Another minor detail of this bill, that I feel should be laid bare, is that it also motions for the establishment of regional prisons in each National Constituency.
Klaus Mikaelson — 21/10/2022
and?
Reifyrm Visdvk [I] — 21/10/2022
The creation regional prisons should assist in reducing any potential strain on the current singlular national prison.
Klaus Mikaelson — 21/10/2022
who would run the regional prisons? wouldn't that just put any potential strain on those local governments, who usually struggle with their budgets as it is
Reifyrm Visdvk [I] — 21/10/2022
Whom runs the next prison? It would only make sense for that authority to run the regional ones as well, would it not?
Klaus Mikaelson — 24/10/2022
I would still be worried on the strain on the local governments
Jonn Stevens (PPK) — 25/10/2022
So question The bill says that the purpose of the Kodiak prison system would be the punish prisoners would that only be for certain crimes or
Reifyrm Visdvk [I] — 25/10/2022
That part is held over from the interregnum bill, and could be changed.
Klaus Mikaelson — 26/10/2022
maybe that's the biggest problem, focusing on punishment vs. rehabilitation
Jonn Stevens (PPK) — 26/10/2022
I feel like it should depend on crime it’s like if you commit murder punishment if you steal something rehabilitation
Klaus Mikaelson — 26/10/2022
the law doesn't currently define the two separately, correct?
Jonn Stevens (PPK) — 26/10/2022
just a suggestion
Klaus Mikaelson — 26/10/2022
and even for a crime such as murder, what good does punishment do other than cost the taxpayer more money? we don't know the circumstances of a person's life that led to that moment, they may need the help more than anyone else
Aaron Tonnesen - New Asden — 26/10/2022
It’s just my opinion, but if someone commits a crime such as murder, they need to face the consequences in the form of punishment aka incarceration
Klaus Mikaelson — 26/10/2022
I don't believe that "punishing" someone actually achieves anything. but that's me
Aaron Tonnesen - New Asden — 26/10/2022
I understand that we need to address the real issue behind why a person may have done what they did, but they can’t get away with the crime they committed
Klaus Mikaelson — 26/10/2022
nobody has suggested otherwise. hence why I mentioned rehabilitation
Jonn Stevens (PPK) — 26/10/2022
Some I believe would say punishment in a deterrent
Klaus Mikaelson — 26/10/2022
and yet we've seen from IRL that that simply isn't true
Tecianad Islands (UWU) — 26/10/2022
If the murderer serves his sentence, he may be released and continue murdering. In my opinion, the only solution is the capital punishment or life sentence.
Klaus Mikaelson — 26/10/2022
I disagree entirely.
the state does not have the right to punish someone for taking a life by taking a life.
one crime does not solve or bring closure to another crime
Aaron Tonnesen - New Asden — 26/10/2022
And I totally agree with you. We need some sort of rehabilitation service, so people don’t re-commit crimes, and to possibly prevent crimes. But, those who have already committed crimes may need rehabilitation and incarceration.
I notice now is a little bit late since the bill was drafted for my opinion lol
Jonn Stevens (PPK) — 26/10/2022
Life sentence I would agree with
Klaus Mikaelson — 26/10/2022
rehabilitation can be achieved while incarcerated. but prisons/jails aimed towards rehabilitation have an entirely different set up than those aimed towards punishment
Aaron Tonnesen - New Asden — 26/10/2022
I totally disagree
Tecianad Islands (UWU) — 26/10/2022
Remember that it is not difficult to pretend you have redeemed yourself. You cannot release a person who has deprived someone else of their loved one. Besides, the family is unlikely to feel safe living with the murderer under the same roof.
Aaron Tonnesen - New Asden — 26/10/2022
My suggestion would be to establish an official rehabilitation center in the kodiak national jail in Rykkburg. That way, criminals can pay for their crime, meanwhile, they are getting the help they need as to why they may have committed a crime. That way , upon serving their sentence they are less likely to commit another crime and suffer mental health issues.
Klaus Mikaelson — 26/10/2022
I don't feel safe living in the same country as Texas. people don't get to decide against everything that may or may not make them feel "less safe"
Tecianad Islands (UWU) — 26/10/2022
Ok, but murder with particular cruelty or mass murder = life sentence without the possibility of changing the sentence. Just do not.
Klaus Mikaelson — 26/10/2022
that's an incredibly specific crime, less than 1% of those in prison at any given time
likely less than 0.5%
Tecianad Islands (UWU) — 26/10/2022
I know, but at least let's not leave any legal loopholes allowing them to go free
Aaron Tonnesen - New Asden — 26/10/2022
What I was trying to say is that criminals need to be rehabilitated in the prison and that rehabilitation does not change due process of law or felonies. I think that rehabilitation can be served along side misdemeanors/small crimes. (that will have to be specified in the bill)
Símôn Kalimeno (NUP) — 26/10/2022
I agree with @Tecianad Islands (UWU); there are some crimes that, even after rehabilitation, do not permit the person who committed them to be trusted to be a non-violent citizen. Of course, that depends on the circumstances of the crime. Sometimes, circumstances of the life of the person who committed the crime or actions of the victim can make the crime more justified. However, crimes like unprovoked and/or brutal rape or murder, the child version of such things, etc, can permit the death penalty in many cases and most certainly life in prison otherwise . For lower crimes, however, such as drug related crimes, lesser degrees of murder, misdemeanors, robbery, fraud, most non-violent crimes, etc, warrant rehabilitation, fines, and community service rather than prison time.
Drug crimes especially warrant rehabilitation rather than punishment.
Reginald Karbunckle(Kusaca)(NUP) — 26/10/2022
In most instances I would concur. I find that there are always exceptions, but in most cases, I would say that it is only fair. If you intentionally deprive someone else of the ability to live their life, it is just that you lose yours.
Klaus Mikaelson — 27/10/2022
Those crimes are In the minority and are, when compared to crime overall, fairy rare
Klaus Mikaelson — 27/10/2022
“An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind”
Símôn Kalimeno (NUP) — 27/10/2022
That doesn’t mean serious crimes don’t deserve punishment 😛
Klaus Mikaelson — 27/10/2022
No, my point is that the entire system shouldn’t be centered around a very small percentage of crimes, and it feels like it is
Símôn Kalimeno (NUP) — 27/10/2022
Yes, what I’m saying is the worst percentage of crimes should receive punishment while much lesser crimes should see the criminal getting guidance and rehabilitation. I think everybody here agrees on that. I agree with you in that the standard of punishment for different crimes should not be based on the worst of them.
Patrick Barber — 07/11/2022
I would like to suggest that we pass this bill as it stands but earmark it for a wider policy expansion later
Klaus Mikaelson — 07/11/2022
Between stating that there shall be 10 inmates per cell and that the entire purpose of the system is to "punish", I don't see how this bill is agreeable in its current form.
Patrick Barber — 07/11/2022
even an incremental improvement is an improvement and I'd prefer some movement than none
Klaus Mikaelson — 07/11/2022
not for the 10 guys together in a cell
Patrick Barber — 07/11/2022
but if you have specific amendments I'm happy consider them
Patrick Barber — 07/11/2022
those 10 can't be very happy the 100+ holding cell dynamic we have at the moment either
Klaus Mikaelson — 07/11/2022
neither are acceptable
Patrick Barber — 07/11/2022
i don't disagree - but I'd like to think we can pass this and make a marginal improvement rather than spend years debating the better version while maintaining the worse options
unless you have a bill ready to introduce
Klaus Mikaelson — 07/11/2022
I don't have one ready to introduce, no.
Hester Sirocco-Loren (Juliette) — 08/11/2022
I have a question - what is the purpose of specifically a 'National Prison'? To me this seems to send a strange message - some kind of 'Super Prison' that needed to be distinct from others. If there's no distinction necessary, we should just collapse 1.1 and 1.2 and treat Rykkburgh as just another regional prison - as Rykkburgh itself is a city within a province. Edit - is this just a holdover from the Interregnum bill? Perhaps now it really is no longer necessary, as I would interpret the (Inter) bill implying the establishment of just the one prison in Rykkburgh.

There is also a mistake in numbering, 1.2 is repeated.

I agree with Mr Mikaelson in regards to a prison system with the objective of punishment, my stance here is that the goal should be rehabilitation where possible, it should be noted that a stance that is pro-rehabilitation doesn't imply that incarceration and so on is not a punishment that would be utilised by the courts. However that probably does require a wider policy expansion as suggested by President Barber.

Similarly regarding the cell division proposed - more funding would likely be needed for better conditions (OOC: Prison Funding in the simulation seems like a match), which should absolutely be revisited as soon as is practical.

For the moment I'll support a vote on this bill - with the understanding that a wider expansion on policy that is just and humane is explored in the near future.
Klaus Mikaelson — 08/11/2022
I understand the sense in that, and I appreciate the stance of my learned and honorable colleague, but I cannot, with a clear conscience, vote in favor of the bill as it stands. I have personally seen the conditions that some inmates live in, and I cannot condone similar conditions
Patrick Barber — 08/11/2022
I will allow 24 more hours for any specific amendments before I will bring the bill to vote.
Hester Sirocco-Loren (Juliette) — 08/11/2022
(OOC: Can't wait for an answer before proposing this as the timer will run out by the time I'm online tomorrow)

As the introduction of regional prisons (1.2) actually makes (1.1) redundant if there are no specific reasons to have a distinct 'National Prison' - which the current proposed bill does not present.

I propose the following amendment:

Combine (1.1) and (1.2) to: 1.1 - Prisons are authorised to be established and located in the regional seats of each National Constituency.
Patrick Barber — 08/11/2022
I'll wait 16 hours for any objections to the amendment.
Patrick Barber — 10/11/2022
With no objections I will add the amendment. I will create the vote in 8 hours
Patrick Barber — 13/11/2022
apologies for the delay - I've been ill again. I will organise this presently
EasyPoll
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— 13/11/2022

Question
Do you approve of the bill as presented above in the pinned post?

Choices
🇦 Aye
🇧 Nay
🇨 Abstain

Final Result
🇦 ▓▓▓▓▓▓▓░░░ [14 • 70%]
🇧 ▓▓░░░░░░░░ [4 • 20%]
🇨 ▓░░░░░░░░░ [2 • 10%]
20 users voted

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Patrick Barber — 13/11/2022
@Assembly Member
The vote is now active and shall last for 72 hours. Debate is suspended.
Patrick Barber — 15/11/2022
@Assembly Member
Approx 24 hours remain for this vote.