Talk:Prison Reform Act (652)
Prison Reform Act, 652 Klaus Mikaelson OP
— 03/16/2023 2:44 PM
Tabled by John Edwards, MGA, KWP, Luik Oule, MGA, KWP, and Amun Pandor, MGA, FED, as a Government sponsored bill.
Prison Reform Act, 652 A resolution to improve the nations prison system.
https://kodiak.wiki/wiki/Prison_Reform_Act_(652) Proposed by John Edwards and Luik Oule, MGA, KWP, and Amun Pandor, MGA, FED Voting is presently set for 30 March 2023 The Kodiak Republic Wiki Prison Reform Act (652) Prison Reform Act (652) Recognising that Kodiak’s prison system has been sorely neglected and is in a minimally functioning state, this act seeks to improve the nation's prisons to an appropriate condition for Kodiak’s citizenry. Klaus Mikaelson OP
— 03/16/2023 2:44 PM
@Assembly Member Discussion is now open. Klaus Mikaelson
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— 03/16/2023 2:44 PM
Prevail — 03/16/2023 2:46 PM 30 guards for standard prisons and 20 for high security seems much too low Nelson Singh (Equitar) (FED) — 03/16/2023 5:44 PM It is 1 guard per 30 prisoners or 20 for high security. It is not 30 prisoners necessarily in the prison. However I do agree that this number is too low. If the population of the prison is relatively low compared to its size, a prison guard may have to respond to an emergency on the other side of the prison simply due to staff shortages.
1 guard per 15 and 1 per 10 in high security would be more appropriate. At the end of the day, prisoners are criminals who are capable of doing dangerous things, despite their willingness to rehabilitate. John Edwards [KWP] — 03/16/2023 7:47 PM It's based off US ratios Nelson Singh (Equitar) (FED) — 03/16/2023 8:08 PM That doesn't mean much to me. Alfonso Sadurin (DPPK) — 03/16/2023 8:40 PM US is not a good basis for prison reform Rama Pandor [FED] — 03/16/2023 8:40 PM I must concur W Magnus Ward (NUP) — 03/16/2023 8:41 PM it isn't a good model, its true. But a second fact is that using it as a model would be an advancement of the current prison system. Alfonso Sadurin (DPPK) — 03/16/2023 8:41 PM We should be improving justice system to deliver swift justice to those detained and explore other options like penitentiary farms or mining camps for our prisoners. Bauxite mining industry needs workers, and our prisoners might be fit for the job. W Magnus Ward (NUP) — 03/16/2023 8:45 PM I'm pretty sure its a violation of the Universal Rights Act to obligate prisoners to work without their consent. The High Court would, I think, have to rule on the opportunity to pay them under market rates on the occasion they choose to work Alfonso Sadurin (DPPK) — 03/16/2023 8:49 PM I mean, of course, with their consent but the priority would be to direct them to the mines. Nelson Singh (Equitar) (FED) — 03/16/2023 9:05 PM Prisoners have their liberty stripped from them, even if to be rehabilitated. When you "offer" them a job, you are in reality pressuring a vulnerable individual to a gruelling experience in the mines. You're not offering them a job, you're coercing them. Which is no better than slavery. Prisoners should work jobs which require little to no experience, or trade jobs, like barbers, carpenters and electricians. Alfonso Sadurin (DPPK) — 03/16/2023 9:15 PM Mining requires little to no experience Nelson Singh (Equitar) (FED) — 03/16/2023 9:17 PM Its unethical to expect a prisoner, who has limited liberty and freedoms, to go into a cramped mine. Rama Pandor [FED] — 03/16/2023 9:17 PM Ummm I’m not trusting a prisoner with a pic axe 🤣 Alfonso Sadurin (DPPK) — 03/16/2023 9:18 PM You're trusting him to hold a razor and a hammer and electric wires Reginald Karbunckle(Kusaca)(NUP) — 03/16/2023 9:18 PM Just have them do boring office jobs Alfonso Sadurin (DPPK) — 03/16/2023 9:18 PM Can they even read? We have dangerous office stuff like staplers Reginald Karbunckle(Kusaca)(NUP) — 03/16/2023 9:18 PM hmm... well they can stack paper probably Alfonso Sadurin (DPPK) — 03/16/2023 9:19 PM and scissors Braughn F. G. Kryos — 03/16/2023 9:19 PM Prisoners should works jobs that can provide them with an opportunities to thrive after their time in prison. Alfonso Sadurin (DPPK) — 03/16/2023 9:19 PM This is where mining comes in Because the mines are new They'll be sorely needed Mivod Hlaja [NUP] — 03/16/2023 9:19 PM I’m just gonna stop you right there. Braughn F. G. Kryos — 03/16/2023 9:20 PM I'm pretty sure penal slavery would be against universal human rights Mivod Hlaja [NUP] — 03/16/2023 9:20 PM Mining should never be a part of prison labour, Alfonso Sadurin (DPPK) — 03/16/2023 9:20 PM We can have them for coding But that would require them to be sentient Braughn F. G. Kryos — 03/16/2023 9:21 PM None of this is being serious. Reginald Karbunckle(Kusaca)(NUP) — 03/16/2023 9:21 PM Just a clarifying question, not disagreeing with anyone, but what makes mining an unacceptable form of prison labor? Nelson Singh (Equitar) (FED) — 03/16/2023 9:22 PM Prisoners are not deranged psychopaths (most of the time). They are people just like you and me that have likely made a mistake. Sure they are capable of doing dangerous things, yes, but with the right treatments and possible freedoms in the prison that can be revoked in the event they break any more laws, prisoners can be trusted to a certain extent. Nelson Singh (Equitar) (FED) — 03/16/2023 9:23 PM Its dangerous to the miner, and they likely cannot consent to the work because of their status as a prisoner. Mivod Hlaja [NUP] — 03/16/2023 9:23 PM Any hard labour like that should not be done by people who have lost freedoms. It’s penal slavery. Nelson Singh (Equitar) (FED) — 03/16/2023 9:23 PM Thank you, someone agrees. Reginald Karbunckle(Kusaca)(NUP) — 03/16/2023 9:23 PM Ok so dangers and hard physical labor, gotcha Braughn F. G. Kryos — 03/16/2023 9:24 PM Anything that places others in unnecessary harm and subjects them to demeaning environments is penal slavery. To be fair, I think the mining of today (heavily assisted by technology and machinery) would be far less like slavery than, say, 50 years ago. Aaron Tonnesen - New Asden — 03/16/2023 9:25 PM As long as there are safety regulations, I think the prisoners should be able to work as a miner if they choose to do so Rama Pandor [FED] — 03/16/2023 9:26 PM That’s kind of rough Reginald Karbunckle(Kusaca)(NUP) — 03/16/2023 9:26 PM I would agree with that I think Braughn F. G. Kryos — 03/16/2023 9:26 PM (Again, pretty sure this dude is not at all being serious) Nelson Singh (Equitar) (FED) — 03/16/2023 9:27 PM (I am assuming he might be, some people consider convicts to be subhuman.) Braughn F. G. Kryos — 03/16/2023 9:27 PM As long as we're not talking ball-and-chain, splitting rocks mining, I think it can be acceptable. In any case, a quick check with the judiciary branch might be in order. Alfonso Sadurin (DPPK) — 03/16/2023 9:27 PM If it's dangerous to prisoners, then it's more dangerous for civilians. Braughn F. G. Kryos — 03/16/2023 9:27 PM Prisoners are civilians. Alfonso Sadurin (DPPK) — 03/16/2023 9:27 PM There are safeguards imposed in mines. Alfonso Sadurin (DPPK) — 03/16/2023 9:28 PM
- free civilians
Nelson Singh (Equitar) (FED) — 03/16/2023 9:28 PM It is, but people with full liberty can agree and consent to dangerous work without doubt. Alfonso Sadurin (DPPK) — 03/16/2023 9:28 PM Apologies for my mistake Braughn F. G. Kryos — 03/16/2023 9:28 PM I fail to see why differentiating between one social class of humans and another social class of humans would make any difference on the safety of a job. If it is dangerous, it's dangerous. At least with "free citizens", they can choose to leave the jobsite or not work it at all. Mivod Hlaja [NUP] — 03/16/2023 9:30 PM The reason I’m against hard labour in prisons is that we don’t know for certain if the prisoner consented under duress or not. With free individuals we don’t have that doubt. Klaus Mikaelson OP
— 03/16/2023 9:30 PM
Civilians have the right and the ability to say no. Prisoners do not have the ability to give consent, which is why prisoners legally are treated similarly to underage youth Rama Pandor [FED] — 03/16/2023 9:35 PM Ok I feel that this has kinda strayed into something else at least for me I’m a tad lost. So I ask what is the main issues of this bill for those who disagree? Nelson Singh (Equitar) (FED) — 03/16/2023 9:35 PM Exactly, this is the point I want to raise. Nelson Singh (Equitar) (FED) — 03/16/2023 9:35 PM ^ Mivod Hlaja [NUP] — 03/16/2023 9:38 PM The only prison labour I consider acceptable is labour to keep the prison running and educate the prisoner (Janitor work, kitchen work, admin work) or jobs created for the purpose of giving prisoners work experience (Barbershop, electrician, and other skilled labour). Rama Pandor [FED] — 03/16/2023 9:43 PM I would say that’s this bill delivers on that Mivod Hlaja [NUP] — 03/16/2023 9:45 PM I have a number of recommendations for this bill, give me a moment to type them out. Nelson Singh (Equitar) (FED) — 03/16/2023 9:49 PM The only point that I disagree with in the proposal is in article 2.1, in which there is 1 prison guard per 30 prisoners or 20 in high security. This is too low, as I had already mentioned, that the prison facility size may not met the intake of prisoners. As such, a guard may have to respond to an emergency, such as a prison riot on the other side of the prison, especially in smaller prisons. I propose that the requirement for guards be in relation to the size of the prison, not the number of intakes. Rama Pandor [FED] — 03/16/2023 9:53 PM Now reading it I’m inclined to agree but I’m also on the fence because we have to ascertain the amount of COs we might actually have. Now if we are presenting 1 to 30 as a minimum requirement I agree but if the prison can afford to offer more manpower then I think they would do so. Mivod Hlaja [NUP] — 03/16/2023 10:02 PM 1: Increase the Guard to Prisoner Ratio to 1:6 for Min to Med sec, and 1:4 for higher security. Source: https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/ji16.pdf 2: The cell size in 3.3 should be increase to 14 square meters for 3.5 square meters per prisoner. Source: https://www.icrc.org/en/doc/assets/files/publications/icrc-002-4083.pdf 3: Add a 3.4 clause that mandates a 0.9 meter wide, two shelf high bookshelf in each cell. This shelf should be half stocked with general reading materials, rotated monthly, and left half empty for any items the prisoners might acquire. Reasoning: Books reduce boredom and increase positive behavior. 4: Change 4.3 to “Prisoners shall receive the same healthcare as a free individual.” Reasoning: The punishment is the loss of liberty. Lack of proper healthcare shouldn’t be added on top of that. They are equal citizens. 5: Increase funding in 6.1.1 to 300 million a quarter to reflect the extra staff in change 1. Mivod Hlaja [NUP] — 03/16/2023 10:14 PM Afterthoughts: Change 3.3 to open floor space, so not stuff under furniture. Also add a section in article four that mandates at least an hour of yard time. Luik Oule [KWP] — 03/17/2023 9:33 PM (OoC: I've been REALLY busy irl, so I have some catching up to do! If anyone has any amendments they would like to see added, if you don't mind reposting them so I can find them more easily? Thanks!)
1: While prison to guard ratios of these sizes are desirable, a ratio of this size is simply unfeasible. A smaller ratio could be obtained, however a ratio this small is simply not possible within the current budget.
2: While it would be nice to give prisoners this much room, it is unrealistic to completely change the fabric of Kodiak prisons. However, as an alternative, the number of prisoners per cell could be lowered.
3: Great idea, thanks for the suggestion!
4: It was the intent to provide the same level of care to prisoners as free citizens, but I will express that explicitly.
5: I've been planning on a funding rework, thanks for pointing that out though! Nelson Singh (Equitar) (FED) — 03/17/2023 9:39 PM Perhaps 3.3 could apply for newer prison whereas let us say 3.3.1 could accommodate for older prisons with less prisoners per cell. Luik Oule [KWP] — 03/17/2023 9:41 PM Good idea, building more mistakes won't help the problem 😛 Mivod Hlaja [NUP] — 03/17/2023 11:13 PM 1: Maybe a ratio of 1:20 and 1:10 respectively?
2: The punishment of prisoners is the loss of liberty, not humanhood. I will not support this bill if it only provides 0.25 extra meters of space per prisoner. If changing the fabric of prisons is the problem, I would suggest using a 15 square meter cell, which will fit easier into the space left from the 20 square meter holding cells. Rama Pandor [FED] — 03/18/2023 1:02 AM Or just convert cells to pods 5- 10 man pods Klaus Mikaelson OP
— 03/19/2023 12:17 PM
that would cost more money, would it not? \ Rama Pandor [FED] — 03/19/2023 12:18 PM Well it depends on how ya go about it. I can explain more later Klaus Mikaelson OP
— 03/19/2023 12:19 PM
i look forward to it Klaus Mikaelson OP
— 03/21/2023 9:56 AM
anything further? Rama Pandor [FED] — 03/21/2023 1:55 PM Yes Actually due to lack of knowledge and lack of time on something ima hold my point for a sec. How much time is left in Debate? Klaus Mikaelson OP
— 03/21/2023 2:20 PM
voting is originally scheduled for the 30th of March, but that can change based on the debate Luik Oule [KWP] — 03/22/2023 9:03 PM Just letting you all know that I'm working on it. Hopefully I'll have some time to incorporate the GA's suggestions later this week when I have more time. Thanks for your patience 🙂 Luik Oule [KWP] — 03/24/2023 9:58 PM @Assembly President As I'll be gone irl for the next week or so, could you extend the vote for a while? Thank you! W Magnus Ward (NUP) — 03/24/2023 11:20 PM I think it would be more procedurally fair for the members with bills still waiting in the docket, to put this proposal on ice and introduce the next proposal until the author is able to amend his proposal per his request. Klaus Mikaelson OP
— 03/25/2023 11:49 AM
I would agree, due to the number of bills waiting on queue. This proposal will be temporarily locked later today until the author is available to make amendments. Klaus Mikaelson OP
— 04/04/2023 8:22 AM
@Assembly Member Discussion is reopened Klaus Mikaelson OP
— 04/04/2023 8:42 AM
Is there any further discussion to be had? von Zeppelin [FED] — 04/04/2023 8:43 AM None. W Magnus Ward (NUP) — 04/04/2023 8:44 AM I am in favour of the bill Klaus Mikaelson OP
— 04/04/2023 8:45 AM
@Luik Oule [KWP] was there anything particular you wanted to change or argue for on your bill? Luik Oule [KWP] — 04/04/2023 5:29 PM After I add the amendments suggested by GMA Hlaja and his peers, nothing. Klaus Mikaelson OP
— 04/04/2023 5:55 PM
Please let me know as soon as you have done so Luik Oule [KWP] — 04/06/2023 7:38 PM The following amendments to the proposal have been made:
2.1 – Prisons shall maintain a guard-to-prisoner ratio of 1 guard per 20 prisoners for minimal to normal security levels, with a guard-to-prisoner ratio of 1 guard to 10 prisoners for higher security classifications.
3.3 - Cells will be no smaller than 15 meters squared.
6.1.1 - Funding for maintaining the country’s prisons shall be set at ₣300 million per quarter.
Thank you all for your patience regarding this bill! Klaus Mikaelson OP
— 04/06/2023 8:59 PM
Thank you! Any discussion on the new amendments? Luik Oule [KWP] — 04/06/2023 9:00 PM And, if not, could we proceed with the vote? Klaus Mikaelson OP
— 04/07/2023 10:19 AM
that's on today's agenda, I just wanted to allow for time in case someone had something to say Luik Oule [KWP] — 04/07/2023 10:19 AM 👍 EasyPoll BOT
— 04/08/2023 6:43 PM
Question Do you support the Prison Reform Act?
Choices 🇦 Aye 🇧 Nay 🇨 Abstain
Final Result 🇦 ▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓░░ [15 • 79%] 🇧 ▓▓░░░░░░░░ [3 • 16%] 🇨 ▓░░░░░░░░░ [1 • 5%] 19 users voted
- alarm_clock: Poll already ended (2 days ago)
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- one: allowed choice
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Allowed roles: @Assembly Member Poll ID: 7f124410 Klaus Mikaelson OP
— 04/08/2023 6:43 PM
@Assembly Member Seeing no further discussion, voting is now opened.