Talk:National school bus act 650

The National School Bus Act, 650 Klaus Mikaelson OP

— 02/18/2023 7:42 PM

Tabled by Jonn Stevens MGA, DPPK, as a Government sponsored bill. The National School Bus Act of 650 A resolution to assist the citizens of Kodiak in recovering from the recent war with TGN. https://kodiak.wiki/wiki/National_school_bus_act_650 Proposed by Jonn Stevens MGA, DPPK Voting is presently set for 4 March 2023 The Kodiak Republic Wiki National school bus act 650 . Klaus Mikaelson OP

— 02/18/2023 7:43 PM

@Assembly Member discussion is now opened Erich Crysler -- Alsozar [UKN] — 02/18/2023 7:52 PM I believe this is an excellent bill that adds further clarification and function to our National school bus system. Jonn Stevens (DPPK) — 02/18/2023 7:59 PM As minister of transportation I think this bill is great. We must clarifywhat will transport our children to and from school and how safe those vehicles should be that being said I think this is a great bill Mivod Hlaja [KWP] — 02/18/2023 9:02 PM Quick question about 2.2.3, does that mean 34 children and 24 adults? If so, that is a massive bus. A smaller bus might be safer. Good Day Kodiak — 02/18/2023 9:03 PM I've never seen a school bus with seat belts in my life Mivod Hlaja [KWP] — 02/18/2023 9:04 PM Remember, kids must always wear seatbelts unless they’re all in one long, slow vehicle Jonn Stevens (DPPK) — 02/18/2023 9:04 PM From what I seen that’s kind of average I think the large ones hold 72 children and 48 adults Good Day Kodiak — 02/18/2023 9:05 PM I could swear I saw something about how tightly packed the seats are negates the need for belts Arp | Yarumab-Corriopankt — 02/18/2023 9:05 PM Yet that could pose health risks if the bus were to be in an accident. There's barely enough room in the buses for the kids to move in. They're being packed like sardines. Good Day Kodiak — 02/18/2023 9:07 PM Why would you want kids to move in a moving vehicle Arp | Yarumab-Corriopankt — 02/18/2023 9:07 PM Have the seatbelts, but if there is an accident, they should be able to move easily to safety. Erich Crysler -- Alsozar [UKN] — 02/18/2023 9:08 PM I’d say a maximum of 44 children or 22 adults is reasonable Good Day Kodiak — 02/18/2023 9:08 PM Ok I kind of forgot about the evacuation during emergency part Should buses be that big For one it's going to be hard for a driver to keep an eye on forty four children while driving Arp | Yarumab-Corriopankt — 02/18/2023 9:10 PM Then again, not all buses are used to their full capacity. Erich Crysler -- Alsozar [UKN] — 02/18/2023 9:10 PM (That’s how many are on my bus average) Arp | Yarumab-Corriopankt — 02/18/2023 9:10 PM But we still need to act like they WILL be at capacity Erich Crysler -- Alsozar [UKN] — 02/18/2023 9:10 PM 22 seats, 2 per seat Good Day Kodiak — 02/18/2023 9:10 PM What kind of heaven are you from that buses aren't packed beyond the maximum capacity I think twenty two seats is reasonable Arp | Yarumab-Corriopankt — 02/18/2023 9:12 PM Same Good Day Kodiak — 02/18/2023 9:13 PM What about the seat belts though Arp | Yarumab-Corriopankt — 02/18/2023 9:14 PM Perhaps we update our vision of school buses. Maybe have them more closely related to your average large-scale city transit bus Charlotte Groves (Juliette) — 02/18/2023 9:15 PM Buses typically (at least in Australia) have room for 40ish seats, and 2 wheel chair spots, not counting standing room of course.... They are bigger than that stereotypical yellow US school bus however. (I know RL comparison but just want to provide some size context for discussion purposes) Aaron Tonnesen - New Asden — 02/18/2023 9:16 PM Seat belts are not ideal in a school bus. And we can install handicap equipped buses alongside regular buses to add for maximum capacity Good Day Kodiak — 02/18/2023 9:17 PM My main problem would be how is some guy going to keep an eye on that many children while driving Klaus Mikaelson OP

— 02/18/2023 9:18 PM

I think a lot of school buses have camera now Aaron Tonnesen - New Asden — 02/18/2023 9:19 PM Kindergartners won't be able to buckle themeslevs most likely, and it could be a choking hazard. I feel like money used for seatbelts would really be wasted Good Day Kodiak — 02/18/2023 9:19 PM Cameras aren't going to help when little Jenny is tearing out little Carly's hair Klaus Mikaelson OP

— 02/18/2023 9:19 PM

Bus seatbelts aren’t 3 pointers Just across the lap, so no choking hazard Good Day Kodiak — 02/18/2023 9:19 PM Buses are packed tight enough No one's going to put on seatbelts to suffocate themselves more Arp | Yarumab-Corriopankt — 02/18/2023 9:22 PM Some school buses in the US (Another rl reference) have two adults on the bus, one being the driver, and one looking out for anything bad. Charlotte Groves (Juliette) — 02/18/2023 9:23 PM It might be necessary to consider different sized buses depending on route. I imagine some routes only need a smaller bus. It really depends on how this is organised. Aaron Tonnesen - New Asden — 02/18/2023 9:24 PM Also depends on the teacher and bus driver shortage too. No need to buy small buses if there isa dire need for bus drivers Charlotte Groves (Juliette) — 02/18/2023 9:24 PM The goal of course shouldn't be to maximise 'packing children' into a single bus, as well. Arp | Yarumab-Corriopankt — 02/18/2023 9:24 PM This is my main concern. Aaron Tonnesen - New Asden — 02/18/2023 9:25 PM For context, is there a teacher and driver shortage? Good Day Kodiak — 02/18/2023 9:25 PM Can we afford to pay for one more person to be on the bus Arp | Yarumab-Corriopankt — 02/18/2023 9:25 PM Higher funding for education should be able to cover this. Charlotte Groves (Juliette) — 02/18/2023 9:25 PM At least in this case demand creates openings for bus drivers.

Teacher shortage - yes but it has largely been addressed relatively speaking, though I don't know if if it is 'fixed' per se or if we ever will get to a point where we don't have a demand for teachers. Good Day Kodiak — 02/18/2023 9:26 PM I would rather higher funding for education go to education Arp | Yarumab-Corriopankt — 02/18/2023 9:26 PM Some earth countries have a reputation for severely underpaying teachers, which is a leading factor in their demand in the first place. Charlotte Groves (Juliette) — 02/18/2023 9:26 PM The intention is to also utilise the better bus act which is very well funded and this is where funds will come from, for bus purchases, salaries for example. If that answers the questions about funding. Good Day Kodiak — 02/18/2023 9:27 PM Could swear we fixed that before my leave? Arp | Yarumab-Corriopankt — 02/18/2023 9:27 PM I believe we did Aaron Tonnesen - New Asden — 02/18/2023 9:27 PM So buses this large would be off of the table? https://thomasbuiltbuses.com/school-buses/saf-t-liner-c2/ Thomas Built Buses Saf-T-Liner® C2 - Thomas Built Buses The Saf-T-Liner C2 school bus has a reputation for safety and efficiency. Saf-T-Liner® C2 - Thomas Built Buses Good Day Kodiak — 02/18/2023 9:27 PM I would be fine with large buses if they come with an extra adult Arp | Yarumab-Corriopankt — 02/18/2023 9:28 PM Not entirely Charlotte Groves (Juliette) — 02/18/2023 9:28 PM I would say it depends on the route for sizing... it is possible that we ought to consider a couple of sizes so that cheaper smaller buses are used appropriately, and only when we definitely need a larger bus do we purchase those. Arp | Yarumab-Corriopankt — 02/18/2023 9:29 PM Here in YC, we use these buses for schoolchildren: Image We use different models based on who's being transported. They all have seatbelts, but the model of seatbelt depends on who is riding the bus They're normal for say, highschoolers But for elementary and younger, they use a seatbelt similar to airplanes Charlotte Groves (Juliette) — 02/18/2023 9:32 PM Just for more context Australia typically just repurposes normal buses:

The UK does a bit of both, though I've also seen Australia use coach styled buses like what Arp has shown. Image Aaron Tonnesen - New Asden — 02/18/2023 9:33 PM My school distirtc replaced all old school buses with these Arp | Yarumab-Corriopankt — 02/18/2023 9:33 PM These are glass cannons waiting to be broken Aaron Tonnesen - New Asden — 02/18/2023 9:34 PM They are nice and last a long time. Made by Thomas, too Good Day Kodiak — 02/18/2023 9:34 PM Over here we use death traps that are more rusted metal than buses and pray the parents don't sue for too much when something happens Erich Crysler -- Alsozar [UKN] — 02/18/2023 9:36 PM luckily we’ll be able to afford the best quality buses from the BBA’s budget So quality and quantity of service is of no concern Arp | Yarumab-Corriopankt — 02/18/2023 9:36 PM All charter buses found in YC are city transit buses, but some are also repurposed in the morning and afternoon as school buses by simply switching routes. They're also bullet and blast proof Good Day Kodiak — 02/18/2023 9:38 PM That sounds American Arp | Yarumab-Corriopankt — 02/18/2023 9:39 PM American school buses are actually quite flimsy compared to others. Good Day Kodiak — 02/18/2023 9:39 PM Can't be more flimsy than mine Arp | Yarumab-Corriopankt — 02/18/2023 9:42 PM That's what we're trying to avoid. We want buses to be safe for children, not flimsy and easily capable of spontaneously combusting. Aaron Tonnesen - New Asden — 02/18/2023 9:45 PM Well, the type of bus isn't needed for this bill. Just capacity Erich Crysler -- Alsozar [UKN] — 02/18/2023 9:45 PM Don’t worry, with how well funded subsidies for school buses are we probably won’t have quality issues Arp | Yarumab-Corriopankt — 02/18/2023 9:46 PM So which bus have we agreed on? Good Day Kodiak — 02/18/2023 9:46 PM I vote twenty two=no supervising adult, anything more than that has to be paired with a supervising adult Arp | Yarumab-Corriopankt — 02/18/2023 9:49 PM I was thinking more model, but that's not a bad look, either. Erich Crysler -- Alsozar [UKN] — 02/18/2023 9:53 PM I think it’s a bureaucratic nightmare to constantly update the model, so we should just stick to broad requirements and let the Ministry of Transportation or local administrations decide on the specific model Arp | Yarumab-Corriopankt — 02/18/2023 9:53 PM Our charter buses can last for a long time, with the max being around 250 years. We can pay for most of these. Erich Crysler -- Alsozar [UKN] — 02/18/2023 9:55 PM 250 years? 🤨 Arp | Yarumab-Corriopankt — 02/18/2023 9:55 PM Yes We still have buses from 200 years ago that still work flawlessly Aaron Tonnesen - New Asden — 02/18/2023 9:56 PM The age of the US left the chat Erich Crysler -- Alsozar [UKN] — 02/18/2023 9:56 PM Wait…1823 Mivod Hlaja [KWP] — 02/18/2023 9:57 PM Model T came out 100ish years ago I don’t believe you Arp | Yarumab-Corriopankt — 02/18/2023 9:57 PM We use the Kodiak Calendar. Mivod Hlaja [KWP] — 02/18/2023 9:57 PM Oh Erich Crysler -- Alsozar [UKN] — 02/18/2023 9:57 PM Oh Mivod Hlaja [KWP] — 02/18/2023 9:57 PM This is ic Arp | Yarumab-Corriopankt — 02/18/2023 9:57 PM We're not actually on earth. We're on Kodiak. Mivod Hlaja [KWP] — 02/18/2023 9:57 PM That makes significantly more sense Erich Crysler -- Alsozar [UKN] — 02/18/2023 9:58 PM Yes but I think realistically a lot of earth logic applies Arp | Yarumab-Corriopankt — 02/18/2023 9:58 PM It does, but some not entirely. But at the moment, we're offering to provide Kodiak with safe rides for children at no cost. There will be no limit Mivod Hlaja [KWP] — 02/18/2023 9:59 PM I truly don’t think a bus could last 250 years Erich Crysler -- Alsozar [UKN] — 02/18/2023 10:00 PM I have to agree with Hlaja on that Aaron Tonnesen - New Asden — 02/18/2023 10:00 PM School buses can't even last more than 2 decades Arp | Yarumab-Corriopankt — 02/18/2023 10:01 PM But we wouldn't use school buses. Well, we would. Mivod Hlaja [KWP] — 02/18/2023 10:02 PM “Article Two: School Buses” Arp | Yarumab-Corriopankt — 02/18/2023 10:02 PM Just not the ones we're used to seeing. Image Erich Crysler -- Alsozar [UKN] — 02/18/2023 10:02 PM I think this is getting really derailed in terms of lore Mivod Hlaja [KWP] — 02/18/2023 10:02 PM Yes, that is a school bus that would last about a decade Arp | Yarumab-Corriopankt — 02/18/2023 10:03 PM Alright let's go with that There's not that many as of right now But we have tested them already Mivod Hlaja [KWP] — 02/18/2023 10:04 PM Who is “we” in this situation Arp | Yarumab-Corriopankt — 02/18/2023 10:04 PM I'm sorry. Due to multiple lores I'm part of, I can get carried away sometimes. We usually just refers to me. But in this case, it's more of the company who created them, alongside government supervision. Aaron Tonnesen - New Asden — 02/18/2023 10:05 PM Well the rp gov is not NS based. It’s its own separate thing Arp | Yarumab-Corriopankt — 02/18/2023 10:05 PM That's a good reminder. Mivod Hlaja [KWP] — 02/18/2023 10:05 PM That’s why we were confused, I think Arp | Yarumab-Corriopankt — 02/18/2023 10:06 PM Anyways, let's back it up a bit 22 seats, I think. More than 22 children, have another adult supervisor, but if less, then none. Good Day Kodiak — 02/18/2023 10:07 PM Anything more than that has to be paired with an adult Yeah lol And I'm not a fan of seatbelts on school buses Aaron Tonnesen - New Asden — 02/18/2023 10:07 PM Me neither. Seems like too much of a waste of money and too much if a hassle Mivod Hlaja [KWP] — 02/18/2023 10:08 PM I did not expect this to be such a controversial point Arp | Yarumab-Corriopankt — 02/18/2023 10:08 PM So are we just going to use buses like on earth? We're trying to move away from that, right? Erich Crysler -- Alsozar [UKN] — 02/18/2023 10:08 PM I mean the buses work pretty good on earth Arp | Yarumab-Corriopankt — 02/18/2023 10:09 PM But they still have some tendencies that pose serious risks. Good Day Kodiak — 02/18/2023 10:09 PM 1. The design of seats negates the need for belts 2. No one's going to put them on, for reasons including but not limited to: buses are packed enough, no one is looking to suffocate themselves further 3. Safety concerns Mivod Hlaja [KWP] — 02/18/2023 10:10 PM In my opinion, the two main improvements that can be made to irl buses are safety and sustainability. Erich Crysler -- Alsozar [UKN] — 02/18/2023 10:10 PM Please elaborate Arp | Yarumab-Corriopankt — 02/18/2023 10:10 PM One risk is brakes Mivod Hlaja [KWP] — 02/18/2023 10:10 PM I’m going to do some research overnight and talk again in the morning Aaron Tonnesen - New Asden — 02/18/2023 10:10 PM School brakes work fine when properly inspected and maintained Erich Crysler -- Alsozar [UKN] — 02/18/2023 10:10 PM The Better Bus Act makes an effort at sustainability by requiring a minimum engine efficiency Arp | Yarumab-Corriopankt — 02/18/2023 10:10 PM I have heard of a time when the brakes caused a bus to be engulfed in flames in mere seconds. Not sure how this exactly works, but it's best not to take chances. Mivod Hlaja [KWP] — 02/18/2023 10:11 PM So you want to remove brakes? /s Arp | Yarumab-Corriopankt — 02/18/2023 10:11 PM No, of course not. Aaron Tonnesen - New Asden — 02/18/2023 10:11 PM I thought brakes were made of non combustible materials Erich Crysler -- Alsozar [UKN] — 02/18/2023 10:12 PM I think that’s a problem with underfunded transportation services that lack proper maintenance capabilities. I don’t think that’s going to be a problem with a well funded bus service. Aaron Tonnesen - New Asden — 02/18/2023 10:12 PM Other than oil and grease build up. Anyways, what I’m trying to say is the I’m sure they will be maintained Arp | Yarumab-Corriopankt — 02/18/2023 10:12 PM So do we all agree to just use earth buses? Mivod Hlaja [KWP] — 02/18/2023 10:13 PM I want to do some more research, I’ll get back to this in the morning Arp | Yarumab-Corriopankt — 02/18/2023 10:13 PM Sure. Erich Crysler -- Alsozar [UKN] — 02/18/2023 10:14 PM If I remember correctly, our timeframe is roughly equivalent to the 2000s on Earth So plan all discussions with that in context Arp | Yarumab-Corriopankt — 02/18/2023 10:16 PM I believe it is, but some are making it feel more medieval. Erich Crysler -- Alsozar [UKN] — 02/18/2023 10:16 PM Who are? Arp | Yarumab-Corriopankt — 02/18/2023 10:17 PM I think it was purely accidental though. Mivod Hlaja [KWP] — 02/18/2023 10:19 PM Another thing I want to throw into the discussion is instead of having dedicated school buses, improve normal public transport and give schoolchildren free passes. Good Day Kodiak — 02/18/2023 10:19 PM I would love it if we pick models with leg space Arp | Yarumab-Corriopankt — 02/18/2023 10:20 PM Charter buses? Good Day Kodiak — 02/18/2023 10:20 PM Sincerely, a 175 cm high schooler whose legs feel like dying everytime I'm on a bus Good Day Kodiak — 02/18/2023 10:20 PM Never heard of that but sure Arp | Yarumab-Corriopankt — 02/18/2023 10:20 PM It's these Image Erich Crysler -- Alsozar [UKN] — 02/18/2023 10:21 PM I don’t think that would sufficiently meet the demand for transport to school and back. Aaron Tonnesen - New Asden — 02/18/2023 10:22 PM Anyways, that would defeat the purpose of a ‘school’ bus Mivod Hlaja [KWP] — 02/18/2023 10:23 PM That’s kind of the point though Arp | Yarumab-Corriopankt — 02/18/2023 10:23 PM It'd save taxpayer dollars Erich Crysler -- Alsozar [UKN] — 02/18/2023 10:23 PM Also regular bus subsidies are already basically maxed out in terms of funding Mivod Hlaja [KWP] — 02/18/2023 10:23 PM Without dedicated school buses, we can use the funds to let schoolchildren use public transport free, and improve public transport for everyone Arp | Yarumab-Corriopankt — 02/18/2023 10:25 PM And perhaps use those leftover funds for other education-related projects Or maybe for other issues at hand. Jonn Stevens (DPPK) — 02/18/2023 10:33 PM I’m fine with improving public transport but i think public transport and school buses should be separate for example public transport have stops while school buses in my experience show up to the kids home to pick them up. Plus I don’t know how I feel with young kids useing public transportation where anyone could be like people who may not be best for children to be around. children haveing their own form of transportation is much safer and is more convenient for students in my opinion Mivod Hlaja [KWP] — 02/18/2023 10:33 PM Fair point about young children It does look like they should be separate Alfonso Sadurin — 02/19/2023 8:31 AM While I support better public transportation, I would like to point out some issues, clarifications and alternatives.

(1) As pointed out by the Honorable Member Mivod Hlaja, better funding for public transport overall would be better than funding a separate institution. Having public buses retrofitted with a dedicated segment could be more cost-effective.

(2) The funding of 3 million florins is unsubstantiated. It would be better if the funding be presented with other expenditures of the Government rather than being fixated by law. The law also does not provide a provision to increase it in the future, which could limit the servicing later on.

(3) Should the Government want to pursue this law, I recommend that rather than solely being under the Ministry of Transport — it could be an independent agency with joint oversight from the Ministry of Transport (being a public transport) and the Ministry of Education (being mainly tasked with handling children's welfare in education).

(4) I would also like to propose as a measure the viability of this project a tax on (a) air travel especially those by chartered aircraft and (b) sales of private vehicles. Both of which would go to the National Schoolbus Endowment Fund, which would be independently managed by the Ministry of Finance to fund the initiative in perpetuity. Alfonso Sadurin — 02/19/2023 9:50 AM (5) I would like to encourage the members of the Assembly to look at bicycles as an alternative, except for those people with disability. Good Day Kodiak — 02/19/2023 10:06 AM I don't know, is the police/road safety good enough for that Jonn Stevens (DPPK) — 02/19/2023 11:09 AM Number one as I stated In my previous comment I don’t think that’s a good idea it is my opinion the two should be separate number two I wouldn’t say it’s unsubstantiated it’s vital to the running of the department number 3 I mean it’s not a bad idea but i think it’s better if it’s under the ministry of transportation as we are transporting students with slight coloration from the ministry of education number 4 it’s not a bad idea but I feel this not the bill to do so i believe it’s better to prepose another bill to suit that purpose and number 5 wale I agree bicycles are in some cases good I don’t see them as a reasonable alternative Klaus Mikaelson OP

— 02/19/2023 11:10 PM

Especially not in rural communities Alfonso Sadurin — 02/19/2023 11:42 PM Do you suggest honorable member that we have school buses in rural communities? Maybe a smaller mode of transport would be able to accommodate? Erich Crysler -- Alsozar [UKN] — 02/20/2023 7:22 AM Rural communities still have sizable populations. I feel it is even more critical in rural communities that we fund school buses since there is a lack of public transportation there already compared to metro areas. Luik Oule [KWP] — 02/21/2023 6:13 PM Just to frame rural school buses in a more relatable frame, I live in a fairly rural area irl, and here we still have school buses that cover a pretty vast area. Sure, not as much as denser areas, but you'd be surprised at the amount of coverage there is. And while it would be easier to brush off the amount of people living in rural areas because they are more spread out, as @Erich Crysler -- Alsozar [UKN] said, there are still sizeable populations that live there.

Neglecting their needs might be cheaper, but it's setting those regions up for future failure and stagnation. An investment into education, which includes transport to and from places of learning, is exactly what is needed to pull Kodiak out of the recession. Alfonso Sadurin — 02/22/2023 8:53 AM Would it be cheaper to have them bussed around rather than housing them in a boarding school? Klaus Mikaelson OP

— 02/22/2023 9:03 AM

a tax supported boarding school? Alfonso Sadurin — 02/22/2023 9:20 AM yes, so that rural children should not travel long distances John Edwards [KWP] — 02/22/2023 9:50 AM I'm pretty sure buses would be cheaper. Klaus Mikaelson OP

— 02/22/2023 10:22 AM

I'm just clarifying. 😛 I don't think it's necessarily that far, it's just that in some rural areas because of the routes that the buses have to take, a 20 minute drive might take 60-90 minutes Aaron Tonnesen - New Asden — 02/22/2023 4:44 PM Buying a bus is far more cheap and effective than establishing housing. I still stand by my point that this bill should really focus primarily on school buses, nothing that goes out of line of the bill itself. Luik Oule [KWP] — 02/22/2023 9:49 PM Plus, not to mention the impact that taking kids away from their families, especially at young ages, would have on their mental health. And I suspect it wouldn't be very popular to essentially say to Kodiakers in rural communities that the only way their children are able to get an education is to ship them off to a boarding school.

Thanks for your feedback and participation regardless! Klaus Mikaelson

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— 02/24/2023 2:04 PM

Klaus Mikaelson OP

— 02/26/2023 9:52 AM

If there is no further discussion in the next 24 hours, this bill will be brought up for vote Klaus Mikaelson OP

— 02/27/2023 9:33 AM

@Assembly Member Seeing no further discussion, the vote is now called on the National School Bus Act of 650. No further discussion shall be permitted. EasyPoll BOT

— 02/27/2023 9:36 AM

Question Do you approve of the National School Bus Act of 650?

Choices 🇦 Aye 🇧 Nay 🇨 Abstain

Final Result 🇦 ▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓░░ [15 • 83%] 🇧 ▓░░░░░░░░░ [1 • 6%] 🇨 ▓░░░░░░░░░ [2 • 11%] 18 users voted

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alarm_clock: Poll already ended (5 minutes ago)

spy: Anonymous Poll

one: allowed choice

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Allowed roles: @Assembly Member Poll ID: 2a2f4325 Klaus Mikaelson OP

— Yesterday at 12:37 PM

@Assembly Member Less than 21 hours left to vote on this if you have not already done so. Klaus Mikaelson OP

— Today at 9:37 AM

@Assembly Member With 15 votes in favor, 1 vote against and 2 members abstaining from the vote, The National School Bus Act of 650 is now declared passed. This channel will be archived in approximately 24 hours.