Talk:The Tax Reform Resolution, 643
Welcome to #📜｜tax-reform-bill! This is the start of the #📜｜tax-reform-bill channel. A resolution to make sweeping amendments to the existing tax law and regularise the Kodiaker tax system with common global standards. Written and proposed by the Chancellor Patrick Barber. July 16, 2022
Tobias Virstürm (Vikstein) — 07/16/2022 @Assembly Member The Tax Reform Resolution, 643 A resolution to make sweeping amendments to the existing tax law and regularise the Kodiaker tax system with common global standards. Proposed by Chancellor @Patrick Barber Expected final voting to take place on July 29 unless otherwise changed by action of the Assembly. https://kodiak.fandom.com/wiki/The_Tax_Reform_Resolution,_643 (edited)
The Kodiak Republic Wiki The Tax Reform Resolution, 643 A resolution to make sweeping amendments to the existing tax law and regularise the Kodiaker tax system with common global standards. Passed ## MONTH 2022 with ## Aye, ## Nay, ## Abstain. IDENTIFYING the present tax system is vastly out of step with international norms; RECOGNISING the evolving liabilities of the Modern Kodiaker State; PREPARING...
Eh, it's Searls... — 07/16/2022 I think what would be nice is to provide the current rate with the future rate to understand context. If the tax was not present before, that should be noted. A nice-to-have would be an outline of current tax revenue and projected future revenue to understand the context of the government's intentions for the budget. What portions does it feel that this will benefit to certain policies? Or are there goals the government wishes to have the revenue for? At the moment of how this is written, it's very vague what the government wishes to do with such a bill.
Patrick Barber — 07/16/2022 I apologise I wasn't around when the bill was presented otherwise I would have provided most of that information. The list of changes to the current state of affairs is: increase of corporate taxes to 25% from 15% in line with international averages Increase of Capital Gains Tax to match corporate tax rate replacement of classic Property tax with Georgist Land Value Tax - increase to 10% from 6% increase of petrol tax to 15% from 5% creation of tobacco tax @30% creation of Alcohol tax @30% creation of recreational drugs tax @45% (excludes prescriptions) (edited) [8:33 PM] The present revenue report is of course shown on the most recent DPBR. The short answer is - the budget is balanced on revenue vs expenditure from prior to this administration - but the needs of the nation require considerable spending (education, healthcare, defence, social services) which the existing tax regime cannot properly provide. To effectively utilise the economy of scale that a government may wield, it will require a notable increase in revenue. [8:37 PM] Modelling on exact returns are difficult to predict, but a short estimation would be that these changes would together move the present annaul revenues from approx 84 billion / year to 96 billion / year (edited) [8:39 PM] this is also a starting framework which brings the majority of our existing taxes in line with international levels where as at current these revenues are too low to effectively fund government programs and also very low compared to similar nations. (edited) [8:43 PM] To directly address your specific questions: What portions does it [the government] feel that this will benefit to certain policies? The government feels that the current level of income is too low to effectively implement meaningful national policies. For example, the increase of defence spending to what amounts to 'low levels' will blow out the bottom line by 8 billion florins. Any increase in healthcare funding or education funding would be a direct debt. Taxes are also generally a drain on the economic potential of the nation, but investments in policies which increase productivity higher than that drain is not only possible, but probable given the state of our workforce presently. Also, taxes on tobacco and alcohol will aide in decreasing their consumption as well as increasing the general fund available for the health costs associated with them (edited) [8:44 PM] Are there goals the government wishes to have the revenue for? All goals this or any subsequent government may have that might be fulfilled from the general fund as noted in the above answer. (edited) [8:49 PM] At the moment of how this is written, it's very vague what the government wishes to do with such a bill. An Act generally would not contain arguments for or against its passage since they would be irrelevant to the functioning of the bill. The resolution regarding the implementation of the acts within the Law Code itself is short and to the point. Taxes are low and don't fit international norms. This bill seeks to fix that. This government does not make an effort to declare how taxes raised in the general fund are used with the understanding that future governments may have different national policies, needs, or crises to deal with.
Eh, it's Searls... — 07/16/2022 This is very helpful. Thank you. [8:58 PM] Is it possible on Kodiak's Wiki page that we can have current state of the nation? I know that the game is busy with the bubble charts, but I think the pie charts of revenue and expenses would be a reasonable screenshot. Or, perhaps for the sake of this bill, we could see these numbers?
Patrick Barber — 07/16/2022 https://kodiak.fandom.com/wiki/DPBR_642_AB
Hester Sirocco-Loren (Juliette) — 07/16/2022 I certainly agree that we need to be able to fund future works and policies. So I do see tax reform as one way we can do this. Especially if we do not want to spiral into too much debt (realistically debt maybe necessary but we don't have to sink into it).
Klaus Mikaelson — 07/16/2022 Having read the proposed resolution and the above posts from the Chancellor, I can find no fault in the resolution itself or in the reasoning behind it.
July 17, 2022
Eh, it's Searls... — 07/17/2022 What is our current rate for Income, Sales, and Property Tax? [8:27 AM] Can we consider adding Car and Carbon Tax?
Patrick Barber — 07/17/2022 The present income tax rate is progressive, but ultimately its 35% on average [8:27 AM] the sales tax is 7% and there is no change made in this bill [8:28 AM] the property tax is listed above as being repealed and replaced with the land value tax. It presently stands as noted at 6% [8:28 AM] Both car and carbon taxes are things that we can consider - but I would personally believe that they are something that shouldn't be a part of this specific reform bill not because they are bad ideas but because they are more political than the present reform bill asks of the various parties (edited) [8:29 AM] I wouldn't want this entire major reform to get scarpered because of a carbon tax (edited)
Eh, it's Searls... — 07/17/2022 Can you explain the benefits of the Land Value Tax vs. the present low Property Tax? The current brief on this is not clear. (edited)
Patrick Barber — 07/17/2022 a classic property tax is based on the total value of property. so if you build a large building, your taxes go up [8:47 AM]
[8:47 AM] this is a better description than I could type
Eh, it's Searls... — 07/17/2022 Okay. Thanks. Can I suggest we bump Sales to 10%? (edited)
Patrick Barber — 07/17/2022 it is a suggestion I am open to hearing if others feel the same way, but I am, as a leftist, suspicious of regressive taxes like sales taxes because they disproportionally target those with less disposable incomes.
Eh, it's Searls... — 07/17/2022 My only reason is to round out our taxes to increase revenue and Sales is sort of an easy tax to boost even if it is penalizing. Really, most tax is penalizing to some degree, but I think that is more of a philosophical debate than a pragmatic one. (edited) [8:52 AM] I also dare say that we should privatize power to diversify our energy sector and boost the GDP, but this is, obviously, a suggestion outside of this bill.
Patrick Barber — 07/17/2022 Perhaps, though I would say that taxes on profits don't punish profit-seekers, since you can always still seek to make more profit, but sales taxes do punish purchasers because there is no 'benefit' to buying more to avoid them, since its flat, or buying less to avoid them, since you have to buy things to survive
Eh, it's Searls... — 07/17/2022 7% to 10%, I would say is not a damaging move.
Patrick Barber — 07/17/2022 be aware it is applied throughout the entire supply chain [8:56 AM] so its 3% on the sale of the raw good to the refiner, then on the refined good to the manufacturer, then from the completed good to the distributor, then from the distributor to the retailer, then from the retail good to the customer (edited) [8:57 AM] so the final pricing of goods would move more than just 3%
Eh, it's Searls... — 07/17/2022 Well, I believe this rate to be much lower than the norm, and feel that we can move this up without being over-aggressive. 10% is not a terrible rate.
Patrick Barber — 07/17/2022 I disagree - but as I said, if the assembly as a whole wants to increase the sales tax, then I won't stand in the way, but I would personally prefer we didn't. (edited)
Eh, it's Searls... — 07/17/2022 We need to be careful about personal preferences and think about the course of action of the nation.
Patrick Barber — 07/17/2022 It is the standing policy of the Workers Party that we remove regressive taxation entirely because it is our belief punishing the less-well-off for the crime of consumption is a poor course of action for the nation (edited) [9:07 AM] is that a better response?
Eh, it's Searls... — 07/17/2022 I think it is a "fussy" one. [9:11 AM] It's like, if that is the stance, then why have the sales tax at all?
Patrick Barber — 07/17/2022 Yes. Exactly. If I were more interested in one specific subsection of tax policy, I would prefer we didn't have any sales tax at all. That would be the party's position. However, it is my personal belief that the greater good of the entire tax reform is more important than 3% of a sales tax.
Eh, it's Searls... — 07/17/2022 Socialism has to work on high taxes, maybe not sales tax, but high tax, and our tax adjustments are not high enough. However, I am questioning then what is really "aggressive" and "unfair," which becomes very subjective.
Patrick Barber — 07/17/2022 The question put is, should sales tax be 7% or should it be 10% as you requested [9:14 AM] The answer I gave was, "it should stay at 7%, because the party believes it is already a bad thing and making it worse is not a good choice" (edited) [9:14 AM] the second answer I gave was "if the majority of the assembly agree with you I acquiesce" I'm not sure what more I can give you (edited)
Eh, it's Searls... — 07/17/2022 The real question is if the tax bill will be strong enough to manage further planning and expenses. That is the real point. Sales tax, apparently a very touch and political point, was only to supplement as it seems a little low. So. What is it, then? [9:16 AM] I do not approve of emotional conversation of something like this. [9:16 AM] It was a suggestion. Not a provocation.
Patrick Barber — 07/17/2022 We need to be careful about personal preferences and think about the course of action of the nation. Was the point of provocation. Yes. [9:17 AM] because it is an insinuation that my position is not built upon a logical basis (one which I had already explained) but instead an emotional one
Eh, it's Searls... — 07/17/2022 What? [9:17 AM] I think your point is made. Nothing further, please. [9:19 AM] I would like to then further make a suggestion of car and carbon tax to the assembly. @Eh, it's Searls... The real question is if the tax bill will be strong enough to manage further planning and expenses. That is the real point. Sales tax, apparently a very touch and political point, was only to supplement as it seems a little low. So. What is it, then?
Patrick Barber — 07/17/2022 What the sales tax is, is the standing results of multiple governments from multiple political agenda tweaking and changing tax and spending policy over 20 years. Its existence was not a choice made by my government or my party. It is just how we found it. And here we are trying to make changes. I can't speak to the specific reasons behind the sales tax as it was developed in 630. Only that I don't believe it should be increased in 644.
Eh, it's Searls... — 07/17/2022 Noted. [9:22 AM] To be clear to the consideration of the other members, I am suggesting sales tax be increased from 7% to 10%, the enacting of a car and carbon tax. I leave it to the judgment of the assembly.
Patrick Barber — 07/17/2022 I will tag the president so that he is aware of the question. @Assembly President The honourable member, @Eh, it's Searls... Has requested an amendment to increase the sales tax from 7% to 10% and has requested the input of the assembly on the development of a Car Tax and a Carbon Tax within the text this resolution.
Eh, it's Searls... — 07/17/2022 Thank you. [9:26 AM] I think, too, I would like to hear opinions about the income tax and if that may be bumped as well. Perhaps from 35% to 36%.
Tobias Virstürm (Vikstein) — 07/17/2022 In order for the amendment to take place we will need a motion and a second.
Micheal Valois (Tanith) - SIP — 07/17/2022 I would recommend we possibly keep the Car Tax and Carbon Tax to a future Bill where we can also push benefits such as tax writeoffs for owners of EV or Hybrid vehicles. It would be easier to push the bill as a whole then under the pretext of Enviromentalism (edited)
Eh, it's Searls... — 07/17/2022 I suppose. But this being a tax bill with additional taxes being enacted, I think it is still fair to add these two here.
Patrick Barber — 07/17/2022 The NUP have agreed to support this bill as it was presented. I cannot confirm if @Oskar Luchens (NUP) would support a carbon tax or car tax as well as the present changes.
Oskar Luchens (NUP) — 07/17/2022 Quickly reviewing this during my lunch. Based on the main bill and the suggestions I see so far for the Eco-edits. I would oppose the sales tax increase in keeping with the language we have seen already of how it would effect the poorer members of the nation. Primarily my concern is that the gain would not outweigh the strain.
For the Eco-Taxes. I'd need to see the language of the edits before I pushed an NUP position on it. The Eco-Taxes could be their own bill though and would be a good introduction for the newer assembly members to organize if we are seeing that much interest in it. The NUP stance is that the current bill has the needed language to address the immediate crisis we are facing. And some of its already in the radical territory of change. (edited)
July 18, 2022
John Edwards [KWP] — 07/18/2022 Considering that approx 55% of the nation is considered poor, I would be hesitant to make adjustments to the sales tax as it will have the greatest impact on that demographic. A sales tax increase will not affect middle income or wealthy spending and can be a significant form of revenue. However a poor household is often unable to swallow even a small increase and is forced to cut spending to accommodate. As a result, in a country with our level of poor, I can't help but think it might actually negatively impact our revenue stream. [2:14 AM] It could be something to look into at a point where that percentage is lower but I think it is not advisable at this particular point in time. A car tax would likely have a similar impact. A carbon tax could be good but we would need to see the specifics and how they affect the populace. It would likely work better in a separate bill.
Eh, it's Searls... — 07/18/2022 Perhaps we could think about the carbon tax only as that is mostly applied to industry. It could dip the GDP, but we seem to have an asthma and air quality issue. This, and I'm assuming the Tobacco Tax, would lessen that issue. [7:32 AM] I would like to understand the pros and cons (and intentions) of the Tobacco and Alcohol Tax as that tends to affect the poor more so than others. I can understand if we do not wish to throttle the Sales Tax at this time, but these other two are along the similar lines of "punishing" the lower incomes.
Patrick Barber — 07/18/2022 Vice taxes do often tend to target people in a lower SES than others, but they also act as a market mechanism to reduce consumption. As mentioned above - the mechanism related to sales tax doesn't make economic sense because the economy generally wants people to participate in it. However as a health and safety policy, the government does not want citizens to participate in Smoking and Drinking. So raising the price by tax is a tool to lower consumption, and the revenue taken will help make up for the price those items cost in health and productivity.
Eh, it's Searls... — 07/18/2022 After careful study, I would like to propose the following amendments: Increase Corporate Tax to 20% from 15% Keep Capital Gains at the current 10%. Keep Petrol Tax at 5%. Enact Tobacco, Alcohol, and Recreational Drugs Tax at 5%. (It is understood that sales tax will still be applied to these products in additional to the respective tax.) Enact: Public Tax Return Data with Full Disclosure in order to more accurately collect tax. Diverted Profits Tax at 10% in order to keep international companies honest with their taxable income in TKR. Carbon Tax at 10% to influence industry to be more clean and reduce our current respiratory illnesses and air pollution issues. Financial Transactions Tax at 10% to reduce dangerous speculative investments. [2:20 PM] I think it's a good point that we don't want to directly impact consumer spending by increasing the Sales Tax, but I think this draws concern to the Alcohol, Tobacco, and Recreational Drug Taxes, in particular, as they are very aggressive and can impact lower incomes heavily. So, I think it is in the best interest for this demographic to apply a lighter tax than originally proposed since, truly, these are luxuries that can technically incur additional tax. We should also not add more insult to injury with a heavier Petrol Tax in addition to these consumer products. Having reviewed our current tax process, we are not fully or accurately collecting tax by making sure that all citizens are fully transparent with their incomes. This is an easy fix and will bring in a more accurate tax revenue. Additionally, we seem to have gaps with commerce and industry on taxes to keep tax-dodging at bay along with additional safety measures with risky investments. And lastly, to try to curb excessive air pollution and to keep industry more climate conscious, a Carbon Tax should be introduced rounding out measures of regulation, stabilization and better tax revenue for the nation without overtaxing the consumer directly. (edited) [2:20 PM] I am open to other ideas.
Aaron Tonnesen - New Asden — 07/18/2022 Since the alcohol, drug, and tobacco tax will be increased tremendously, I think it would be a good idea to redirect the money made from those taxes to rehabilitation and addiction centers (edited)
Eh, it's Searls... — 07/18/2022 I would rather we consider less tax, truly, on those items. I don't think transferring that to rehabilitation is the way to go. Firstly, you're greatly impacting their spending now since there is some evidence of addiction with these items, and so they won't quit cold turkey and it's not clear how easily translated their decision will be to seek out help. And so, it's problematic on their bank accounts that these taxes are going to further cause an issue. But I would like to point out the nature in which the increase to Sales Tax was received: Increasing tax on consumer goods has drawbacks to consumer spending. And it is the nature of this government to not impose unfair burdens on others, if we can avoid it. So, these additional taxes being this aggressive right off the bat is going against this message and ideology. So, I believe the present bill presents itself as inconsistent and should be adjusted. However, I'm giving alternatives to finding the extra revenue and avoid us taxing too heavily on consumer goods. July 20, 2022
Patrick Barber — 07/20/2022 Seeing that there have been two days without new comments, I would like to motion we bring the voting day up from 29 July to 23 July. (edited)
July 21, 2022
Eh, it's Searls... — 07/21/2022 A new comment. @Patrick Barber Seeing that there have been two days without new comments, I would like to motion we bring the voting day up from 29 July to 23 July. (edited)
Klaus Mikaelson — 07/21/2022 I second the motion.
Tobias Virstürm (Vikstein) — 07/21/2022 Seeing the second. The voting date has been moved to 23 July.
Leonidas Agiad of Sparta - SIP — 07/21/2022 I @Eh, it's Searls... I agree with your proposed act to increase tax July 22, 2022
Leonidas Agiad of Sparta - SIP — 07/22/2022 I will likely attempt pass a bill to greatly increase income tax eventually
Zachary — 07/22/2022 @Leonidas Agiad of Sparta - SIP, what is the current rate?
Leonidas Agiad of Sparta - SIP — 07/22/2022 @Zachary in Sparta income tax is 70%
The Kodiak Public Service — 07/22/2022 The present individual income tax rate assessed by the Government of Kodiak is 35% (edited)
Zachary — 07/22/2022 I propose we stay at the current rate or even decrease it
Leonidas Agiad of Sparta - SIP — 07/22/2022 Personally I would like to increase income from 35 to 45% [12:54 AM] Tax
Zachary — 07/22/2022 That is almost half of someone's hard work. I cannot side with this.
Leonidas Agiad of Sparta - SIP — 07/22/2022 And that money goes towards social welfare and pension funds [12:56 AM] Personally I would like to reform the tax system to introduce a new tax in place of product tax called the military funding tax
The Kodiak Public Service — 07/22/2022 I would like to softly encourage the members to consider the bill presently under debate which performs the following functions:
Leonidas Agiad of Sparta - SIP — 07/22/2022 Yes indeed I am in favor of increasing the tax
Zachary — 07/22/2022 For this, I stand in agreement
Leonidas Agiad of Sparta - SIP — 07/22/2022 The good that could come from the money is immeasurable so the SIP will back the bill when voting is established
Hester Sirocco-Loren (Juliette) — 07/22/2022 I would also point out that the current income tax is tiered by annual income and not a flat rate, though let's discuss this at another time as this is a pretty focused tax reform on particular areas of taxation. On the topic of the carbon tax, I would like to see it in the future if not now - it may be worth looking into both taxation and subsidies in that case if we are serious about environmental concerns and encouraging investment into newer clean technology and industries.
Leonidas Agiad of Sparta - SIP — 07/22/2022 @Hester Sirocco-Loren (Juliette) at the minute that's the least of our concerns really need to focus on getting more funding to the army to manage this massive inefficiency of equipment in the military and the Airforce and Navy also need massive overhall (edited)
Hester Sirocco-Loren (Juliette) — 07/22/2022 The military has already recently received an injection of funds (I'll dig up the act for you in a sec), and there is an upcoming anti-terrorism act that has yet to go to floor that will likely detail additional funding. (edited)
Leonidas Agiad of Sparta - SIP — 07/22/2022 I've seen the act
[4:10 AM] The issue is it will take 3 years to show any improvement alongside that there will likely be a dip in performance of the army until it does right when we are on the verge of a war with equipment deficits and manpower shortages [4:11 AM] I've spoken to the defence minister and he's talking to the chancellor now about whether or not to fully mobilise the Spartan Army that is strong enough to hugely boost the active army
Hester Sirocco-Loren (Juliette) — 07/22/2022 I'm sure the Defence Minister will continue to work towards the improvement of military readiness, of that I have no doubt.
Leonidas Agiad of Sparta - SIP — 07/22/2022 Ofc I have faith but this is a dire situation and I'm taking a roll in trying to help them get ready faster
July 23, 2022 Tobias Virstürm (Vikstein) used
EasyPollBOT — 07/23/2022 (edited)
Question Do you support the resolution? Choices Aye Nay Abstain Final Result ▓▓▓▓▓▓▓░░░ [14 • 70%] ▓▓░░░░░░░░ [4 • 20%] ▓░░░░░░░░░ [2 • 10%] 20 users voted Settings Poll already ended (2 days ago) Anonymous Poll allowed choice No other votes allowed Allowed roles: @Assembly Member Poll ID: QXCU1x5n5F
Tobias Virstürm (Vikstein) — 07/23/2022 @Assembly Member the proposed resolution has been put up for vote. Further discussion of the resolution is prohibited.
July 26, 2022
Tobias Virstürm (Vikstein) — 07/26/2022 @Assembly Member this resolution has passed. I will be archiving and deleting the channel in 24 hours.