Talk:The Bicycle Act, 649
The Bicycle Act, 649 Klaus Mikaelson OP
— 01/14/2023 10:58 AM
Tabled by Luik Oule, MGA, KWP, as an independent member's bill. The Bicycle Act, 649 A bill to help restructure the infrastructure in Kodiak to improve and encourage the use of bicycles across the nation. https://kodiak.wiki/wiki/The_Bicycle_Act,_649 Proposed by Luik Oule, MGA, KWP. Voting is presently set for 28 Jan 2023 Tom Westbrook — 01/14/2023 11:08 AM This is a great bill. My constituents are very excited about the prospect of safe bicycle infrastructure Charlotte Groves (Juliette) — 01/14/2023 11:10 AM I want to say that the idea of a bicycle superhighway intrigues me greatly. I also believe in better bicycle infrastructure being an excellent initiative - as well as a an excellent safety initiative.
For safety and regulations, I think it would be good that there is a clause that covers obstructions and that all bicycle lanes must be clear from obstruction, unless it is obstructed for safety reasons (e.g., construction work, traffic accident handlng etc).
Obstructions could be anything from a parked car, to a lemonade stand... etc etc. Though please word the clause better 😅 Aaron Tonnesen - New Asden — 01/14/2023 11:12 AM My only concern (although I just skimmed through it) is that this is pretty expensive. We would spend about as much on bikes as half of our rail infrastructure Klaus Mikaelson OP
— 01/14/2023 11:12 AM
@Assembly Member Discussion is opened (delayed post, sorry) Tom Westbrook — 01/14/2023 11:14 AM I think the cost is justified to establish new infrastructure across the nation. Once it is established, its maintenance would be much cheaper and the funds could be redistributed Charlotte Groves (Juliette) — 01/14/2023 11:14 AM My guess is that the greater expense is due to initial infrastructure work. Perhaps it be better then to outline the funds provided for the work, and then the quarterly for DCI for maintenance and future constructions can be reduced. Luik Oule - Kallamaya [KWP] — 01/14/2023 11:16 AM Sounds good. I'll work on adjusting the quarterly funding to be a bit more reasonable. Klaus Mikaelson OP
— 01/14/2023 11:16 AM
if we're going to spend the money, could we add solar panels into the mix? Joshua Lopez - Slatium — 01/14/2023 11:16 AM I think the new infrastructure is not only good for current bikers but might encourage new bikers too, I'm happy with this Luik Oule - Kallamaya [KWP] — 01/14/2023 11:17 AM Never seen that before... but why not. Tom Westbrook — 01/14/2023 11:17 AM it is my opinion that this would greatly increase upfront and maintenance costs and with the angle of the solar panels it would not be as efficient as a specially designed plant Luik Oule - Kallamaya [KWP] — 01/14/2023 11:18 AM But it would also provide some protection from the elements to the cyclists, and maybe just on the superhighways. Klaus Mikaelson OP
— 01/14/2023 11:18 AM
I'm looking at an article about a bike lane in Korea, where the bike line is in the middle of the highway, has protection on both sides, and solar panels above it, just for reference this is the article, if anyone is interested https://interestingengineering.com/innovation/south-korean-20-mile-solar-bike-highway-generates-electricity South Korean 20-Mile Solar 'Bike Highway' Generates Electricity Putting a bicycle lane in the center of a highway is unusual; however, it produces more than enough electricity to power the lighting. South Korean 20-Mile Solar 'Bike Highway' Generates Electricity Tom Westbrook — 01/14/2023 11:19 AM i am sure there are more cost-effective materials that could be used to shield against the elements than expensive equipment like solar panels Klaus Mikaelson OP
— 01/14/2023 11:20 AM
I'm sure, but less expensive materials would just exist simply to perform the one function, instead of also providing energy at the same time again, just a thought because I just saw this article, nothing set in stone or something I'm dead set for Tom Westbrook — 01/14/2023 11:21 AM yes but they would be much more durable and cost much much less to maintain i worry that such a project complicates the goals of this bill Klaus Mikaelson OP
— 01/14/2023 11:23 AM
that much we can agree on. 😛 Tom Westbrook — 01/14/2023 11:23 AM perhaps it should be left to the consideration of the DCI were projects can undergo proper cost/benefit analysis Luik Oule - Kallamaya [KWP] — 01/14/2023 11:27 AM maybe a compromise? what about lights on the path equipped with solar panels to power themselves. while there is a high upfront cost, it would cost much less in maintenance (i.e. power), and the lights wouldn't be in danger of plunging the superhighway into darkness in the event of a power outage. Joshua Lopez - Slatium — 01/14/2023 11:33 AM And during the night? Aaron Tonnesen - New Asden — 01/14/2023 11:33 AM We would need to have batteries installed Joshua Lopez - Slatium — 01/14/2023 11:33 AM Or do the lights gain power in the day to use it during the night? Aaron Tonnesen - New Asden — 01/14/2023 11:34 AM Usually they power is stored in a battery, and when there isn’t enough sunlight, it uses the energy stored in the battery to work Luik Oule - Kallamaya [KWP] — 01/14/2023 11:34 AM Yep, what Asden said. Erich Crysler -- Alsozar [UKN] — 01/14/2023 11:45 AM I think pedestrian friendly infrastructure is very important. The boost in employment for the construction of the new bicycle infrastructure would definitely help the economy. Patrick Barber
to this channel. See all
pinned messages .
— 01/14/2023 4:58 PM
Charlotte Groves (Juliette) — 01/14/2023 8:38 PM For those that didn't catch the message in General. @Luik Oule - Kallamaya [KWP] will be away for a couple of days IRL so there will be a small delay in an amendment proposed. Immanuel von Zeppelin — 01/16/2023 2:54 AM I think this law is inappropriate. I'll explain. 1) It is said about the width of the road, but not about its quality. Even a swamp can be considered a 'bicycle road' if it is fenced. 2) 'Bicycle mega-highways' is a beautiful idea, but inefficient. Bicycles are highly maneuverable vehicles for movement for the surrounding area, but not for at least some long-distance trips. I propose to shift the focus of the bill's attention to this - to the infrastructure of the short and medium distance. 3) It is not so much the infrastructure that should be developed, but the concept of a kind of '15-minute city'. For those who do not know, I will explain. This concept suggests the construction of such cities so that everything necessary for human life is within a 15-minute accessibility. If you initially build a city according to this concept, you will not have to additionally finance transport. Jonn Stevens (DPPK) — 01/16/2023 3:05 AM I can understand your point and with the little research I’ve on the 15 minute city it looks like a good idea but I wouldn’t go as far to say that because of this concept it makes the bill inappropriate i think creating a system where you can pretty much ride your bike anywhere is great and I think many people do use bikes and a means of transportation for long distances already tho I do agree that in essence the bike lane part is a little vague and could be explained more Immanuel von Zeppelin — 01/16/2023 6:51 AM I see the problem in the fact that, as I see it, the project aims to make bicycles a full-fledged form of transport. And bicycles, due to their great dependence on weather conditions and human health, cannot be a full-fledged mode of transport. Charlotte Groves (Juliette) — 01/16/2023 7:26 AM I don't think it aims to make bicycles the main mode of transport, at least I don't see it that way, I am not the author so I'll leave any response to him also, so this is merely my opinion.
I don't think that would be possible for bicycles to be a transport option used by the majority. It does provide the ability for the choice of using a bicycle for ones daily commute (e.g., to work). Granted, this is more readily visible as viable depending on where you live relative to work. I think the other benefit that shouldn't be ignored is that proper infrastructure is actually a safety feature, with bike lanes and paths not only being attributed to roads, but can be split off smartly and separated from roads where possible, providing different route options for the cyclist. It can also be extremely helpful for inner city living as well, where traffic can pretty simply be skipped by cycling if that is your preference. Not everyone wants to own a car for instance, nor can all people afford one, sometimes cycling is preferred. While they aren't the biggest group of people in Kodiak, I'm sure there are far more cars than bikes, it can still be a good initiative to provide infrastructure. It may even encourage more cycling (though again - unlikely to become the biggest transport method), which is good for reducing cars on the road, and provides health benefits.
Regarding the mega/super highway idea, perhaps @Luik Oule - Kallamaya [KWP] can give us more information about what he is thinking here,particularly what that would look like to connect the municipalities. I personally won't be riding long distance regularly if at all.
(Out of character: In real life, if I were to ride my bike, it'd probably be no more than an hours travel time that I'd consider it viable personally 😂 haha). John Edwards [KWP] — 01/16/2023 9:03 PM You've never dealt with serious cyclists? Multi hour rides in sweltering heat is nothing to them. Charlotte Groves (Juliette) — 01/16/2023 9:34 PM I can't say I'm one of them... but I know a few.... (OOC) Luik Oule - Kallamaya [KWP] — 01/16/2023 9:48 PM (I'm responding collectively to both of your posts)
(tl;dr: basically what charolette said 🙂 )
1) That is a good catch! I hadn't thought of that and had overlooked that, I'll get to remedying that. (ooc i'll hopefully get it done very soon when i have more time.)
2) I understand the the wording "bicycle mega-highway" implies a massive piece of infrastructure, but it would be a simple 2-lane bike path connecting two municipalities. I will amendclarify this soon.
3) While I agree that the 15-minute city is a desirable thing to be achieved, realistically, even if we started reforms to Kodiak's city design, it would still take years to undo the mistakes that took us here. Until then, building up adequate bike infrastructure to provide alternatives to driving for errands/commutes etc. is, at least in my opinion, a step in the right direction.
4) As I stated previously, this bill by no means is intended to make bicycles a primary form of transport. However, providing infrastructure for cyclists and making it a safe and viable alternative for people of all ages will help decrease car dependency and traffic congestion.
Hope this answers your questions/assures your doubts! (ooc: again, i'll try to work on writing up the suggested amendments when i, hopefully soon, have time. and sorry for the wall of text xD) Luik Oule - Kallamaya [KWP] — 01/16/2023 9:53 PM (ooc: this literally describes my dad. he took me on one of his 6 hour rides last august in 80 degree heat (high 20s in celcius i think). never again.) Immanuel von Zeppelin — 01/17/2023 12:13 AM A two-lane bicycle road between municipalities is very good. I agree with your arguments. I will wait for the bill to be updated. Klaus Mikaelson OP
— 01/17/2023 7:54 PM
I was under the impression that people in cities often hated bicyclists. is that not true? John Edwards [KWP] — 01/17/2023 8:16 PM Blocking traffic. I assume bicycle lanes would alleviate that somewhat? Tom Westbrook — 01/17/2023 8:52 PM Moving cyclists out of the roads and into cycle lanes would effectively remove them from causing drivers to alter their driving around cyclists which is normally people's main contention with cyclists on the roads Klaus Mikaelson OP
— 01/17/2023 9:24 PM
I've never lived somewhere where bicycling was a big deal so I have no first-hand experience and I don't know how to ride a bike, so I really have no first-hand experience lol Aaron Tonnesen - New Asden — 01/17/2023 9:35 PM The bill never said tricycles weren’t an option Patrick Barber — 01/18/2023 6:02 AM I'm not sure how we could justify spending 6.6 billion florins per year on cycling when we spend only 3.2 billion on hospitals. I'm also actually shocked that the amount of money that is being earmarked for bicycles. The entire road budget is 2.6 billion. Is there a transcription error in the bill? Reifyrm Visdvk [I] — 01/18/2023 7:55 AM I hope it is, otherwise I do not think I will vote in favour of it. Charlotte Groves (Juliette) — 01/18/2023 8:01 AM I think it's accidental rolling in initial work into a quarterly budget I'm feel a quarterly budget excluding any initial stuff should be comfortably lower. Patrick Barber — 01/18/2023 8:04 AM Still, I feel that anything above 600 million total per annum would be a bit high, and article 3 allocates 1.4 billion per quarter Charlotte Groves (Juliette) — 01/18/2023 8:06 AM Yep that's what I perceive as comfortably lower, well below 1 billion per annum. Considering we're speaking of continued maintenance and improvements of bicycle lanes which are far fewer than say the extent of roads, motorways, highways, etc. Patrick Barber — 01/18/2023 8:07 AM Yes. I also would consider within the payment things like advertising and education Klaus Mikaelson OP
— 01/18/2023 9:30 AM
What about paid advertisement deals to help offset some of the construction costs? Erich Crysler -- Alsozar [UKN] — 01/18/2023 11:03 AM Are you talking about allowing ads to be shown along the biking routes? Klaus Mikaelson OP
— 01/18/2023 1:49 PM
Yes Luik Oule - Kallamaya [KWP] — 01/18/2023 5:52 PM OoC: Sorry for my absence from Discord recently, things have been a bit crazy lately. Luik: I have started working on the amendments and I hope to be done soon. The main concerns I see are: The multiple problems with the bill that @Immanuel von Zeppelin pointed out; The amount of funding the bill allocates; And the question of advertising to bicyclists.
I have almost finished working on correcting the things von Zeppelin pointed out, and I agree that the funding for the DCI is high and will work on remedying that.
Finally, concerning advertising to cyclists. Making revenue off of advertising on bike paths could be a way to offset costs, but this would entail involving the private sector, which is something my party is firmly against. While this proposal is not government sponsored, it doesn't make sense for me as a member of the KWP to work against my party.
I hope that this addresses all of the main concerns with the proposal.
OoC: And, again, sorry for being absent from the mock gov! And for my lengthy post 🙂 Erich Crysler -- Alsozar [UKN] — 01/18/2023 6:53 PM To dismiss an excellent way to generate revenue without compromising the integrity of the system is a very bad choice imo. Simply allowing local businesses to advertise their goods and services would not only boost consumer spending but also free up some of the government’s budget. Klaus Mikaelson OP
— 01/18/2023 8:06 PM
If we’re going to spend quite so much money in it, we should at least look at ways to offset some of the expenses Aaron Tonnesen - New Asden — 01/18/2023 8:31 PM Private ads? Or what about a private scooter service too (not sure if that available through the simulation) Klaus Mikaelson OP
— 01/18/2023 9:19 PM
I was just thinking ads, personally. But I’m open to just about anything Aaron Tonnesen - New Asden — 01/18/2023 9:52 PM Ads would be the cheapest and most efficient way to balance the deposit. Klaus Mikaelson OP
— 01/19/2023 10:33 AM
I just keeping thinking about the points made by the President.
-6.6 billion florins per year on cycling vs. 3.2 billion on hospitals. -The entire road budget is 2.6 billion. Erich Crysler -- Alsozar [UKN] — 01/19/2023 10:55 AM note the entirety of the Better Bus Act is approximately 2 billion quarterly John Edwards [KWP] — 01/19/2023 10:56 AM Part of the problem is it's hard to gauge how much we should spend on a project. Other than comparing it to other projects.
6.6 million per year would likely be more than enough and more in line with other projects. Klaus Mikaelson OP
— 01/19/2023 12:20 PM
i have no real problem with the cost, I'm just thinking that if we can recoup some of the costs, why not at least explore it Patrick Barber — 01/20/2023 8:43 PM paying more on public transport and green transport than roads makes sense. maybe three times the budget on one form of transport feels a little myopic. I would suggest as an amendment that the total expenditure be 200 million per quarter Luik Oule - Kallamaya [KWP] — 01/20/2023 9:05 PM (ooc: sorry for the delay 🙂 ) @Klaus Mikaelson Please add these following amendments to the bill: 1.1 - Defines bicycle lane as a dedicated lane for bicycles.
1.2 - Defines bicycle highway as a medium to long-distance bi-directional bicycle lane connecting municipalities.
1.3 - Defines bicycle infrastructure as infrastructure dedicated bicycles.
2.4 - The Ministry of Transportation shall be allocated 50 million florins per quarter to fund the NBS's operations.
3.3 - The Ministry of Transportation shall be allocated 150 million florins per quarter to fund the DCI's operations.
3.4 - The Ministry of Transportation shall be allocated 500 million florins upon it's founding to fund initial costs.
4.1 - All bicycle lanes must be at least 1.5 km in length and 1 meter in width per direction of bicycle traffic, with the lane material consisting of orange-coloured pavement at least 250 mm thick. Immanuel von Zeppelin — 01/21/2023 12:14 AM You can't think of a better ideal. I would like to propose to the members of the Assembly to freeze this project for a while. The bill itself is great, but it requires money, and we don't have money. Klaus Mikaelson OP
— 01/21/2023 3:52 PM
I'll get that put in today and will post here when it is done! Luik Oule - Kallamaya [KWP] — 01/21/2023 5:07 PM While money is a valid concern, the benefits of this proposal far outweigh it's costs, in my opinion. While the bill does not pay for itself directly, it encourages physical activity by promoting cycling, which reduces the rate of obesity, and therefore healthcare costs, in the region. Also, by encouraging biking instead of driving and providing infrastructure to support that message, it takes people out of cars which, in turn, decreases the wear and tear on roads and extends the life of them, reducing the need for road maintenance and the costs associated with it. The savings we get from other sectors for encouraging biking far outweigh the initial investment and quarterly maintenance. (sorry for the wall of text xD) Klaus Mikaelson OP
— 01/21/2023 6:12 PM
Please note that the changes requested by the bills author have now been made. Patrick Barber — 01/21/2023 6:13 PM This looks much better. Luik Oule - Kallamaya [KWP] — 01/21/2023 8:13 PM I think so too. Thank you and the community for your input! Jonn Stevens (DPPK) — 01/21/2023 8:24 PM Looks great Patrick Barber — 01/21/2023 8:53 PM I'll wait 24 hours in case some of the other opinions around advertising etc want to make their case some more, otherwise I think we can expect to vote sometime in the next day or two Luik Oule - Kallamaya [KWP] — 01/21/2023 8:57 PM Sounds good Immanuel von Zeppelin — 01/21/2023 10:51 PM I have no questions or suggestions on the bill. EasyPoll BOT
— 01/22/2023 11:14 PM
Question Do you approve the Bicycle Act 649 as presented in the pinned post?
Choices 🇦 Aye 🇧 Nay 🇨 Abstain
Final Result 🇦 ▓▓▓▓▓▓▓░░░ [13 • 72%] 🇧 ▓░░░░░░░░░ [2 • 11%] 🇨 ▓▓░░░░░░░░ [3 • 17%] 18 users voted
- alarm_clock: Poll already ended (a day ago)
- spy: Anonymous Poll
- one: allowed choice
- lock: No other votes allowed
Allowed roles: @Assembly Member Poll ID: 2cc5ec85 Patrick Barber — 01/22/2023 11:14 PM @Assembly Member The poll has been called. Debate is suspended. The vote shall remain active for 72 hours. The proposal is linked in the pinned post. Please vote within that time. Thank you Klaus Mikaelson OP
— Today at 8:32 PM
@Assembly Member With 13 votes in favor, 2 against and 3 abstaining from the vote, The Bicycle Act is declared passed.