Talk:Kodiak Education Reforms, 649

Patrick Barber
OP

— 08/12/2022 13:48

@Assembly Member
Tabled by Deputy Chancellor Hester Sirocco-Loren, MGA, KWP as Minister of Health and Education.
Kodiak Education Reforms Resolution, 649
A resolution for a better future with the aim of meeting and exceeding international standards for education levels amongst the population.
https://kodiak.fandom.com/wiki/Kodiak_Education_Reforms,_649
Proposed by Hester Sirocco-Loren, MGA, KWP.
Voting is presently set for 20 Dec 2022
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— 08/12/2022 13:49

Hester Sirocco-Loren (Juliette) — 08/12/2022 22:06
If I could make a short statement, this is one of many reforms I plan to introduce to the GA aimed at improving Kodiak's education system, all to secure the best possible future for all Kodiakers.

The KWP believe that every single Kodiaker should have the opportunity to and receive a quality education. It goes without saying that education grants opportunities in the future, whatever path our nation's children choose to take. With an excellent education backing them, many will grow into the ability to be productive members of society, be able to take care of their own - perhaps where their parents might have struggled, secure a better and more prosperous future for them, their families, and their fellow Kodiaker - present and future.

Some may yet push us all to be better and make great contributions to a better Kodiak, and some still may push Kodiak forward into the future and have a profound effect on current and future generations with new ideas, advancements, and societal leadership. This Kodiaker could be anyone, and no matter where they are from, their backgrounds, their fortunes, we ought to nurture this. Not a single generation should be left behind as we strive to rebuild our nation and become a strong, prosperous nation that we are meant to be.

We take care of our own first, and it starts here with the youngest of us, the next generations. What we do now will put not only the current and next generation in a far better position than now - but every generation after as we build on strong foundations such as these Education reforms.

I'm happy to answer any questions on behalf of the Government, let's engage across platforms for the better!

Just a note - this will repeal current education laws (i.e., The State Schools Act (Inter) ) present since the 'Inter' period of Kodiak. I will add a clause as such to make that clear.
Phil Kirk (Tecianad. Isl.) [NUP] — 09/12/2022 01:06
I think there are too many stages of schooling here, and some of them could be combined with each other
Klaus Mikaelson — 09/12/2022 02:18
such as?
Phil Kirk (Tecianad. Isl.) [NUP] — 09/12/2022 02:33
We have two stages of primary and two secondary education. Wouldn't it be easier to combine these stages by keeping only the division between primary and secondary education?
Erich Crysler -- Alsozar [UKN] — 09/12/2022 03:07
I support the intentions of this bill. Education is vital for a healthy society.
Hester Sirocco-Loren (Juliette) — 09/12/2022 08:31
In terms of division of schooling, there is still only two, Primary School, and Secondary School.

The stages represent curriculum stages and assessment to determine the students' progress, and in the earlier of each of Primary and Secondary, a key check-in point to determine if students are on track or need support.

Well three if you count Reception/Kinder, though that is more just prep for schooling and not related to formal assessment.

I can clarify this some more in the bill.
Patrick Barber
OP

— 09/12/2022 08:35

in the biz, we call them 'bands and strands'
bands represent major curricular points based on age (eg, age 6 through eight) (mathematics for middle childhood)
strands being the specifics (must be able to add numbers up to 3 digits long)
John Edwards [KWP] — 09/12/2022 21:21
This is thoroughly needed. The Skilled workers scheme will be up for review soon as well which will still have teachers at the top of the list but I doubt it's fixed the problem. We'll need to look into training incentives to get teacher numbers up to go alongside this.
Patrick Barber
OP

— 10/12/2022 10:00

I am in favour of strengthening our education system, and honestly its about the only chance we have at righting our economy.
Erich Crysler -- Alsozar [UKN] — 10/12/2022 11:02
I find there to be no real reason not to increase education spending.
Símôn Kalimeno (NUP) — 10/12/2022 11:04
I see no reason not to increase education spending either; it’s one of the best investments we can make in Kodiak’s future.
Erich Crysler -- Alsozar [UKN] — 11/12/2022 02:12
I have one small amendment I’d like to suggest be added to this bill. We should make foreign language classes a mandatory part of the curriculum. I believe this will not only better equip our workforce on the international stage, but it’ll also improve our foreign relations and promote foreign investment into Kodiak.
Reifyrm Visdvk [I] — 11/12/2022 02:29
Which languages, and are there enough certified teachers to teach such class?
Erich Crysler -- Alsozar [UKN] — 11/12/2022 02:32
Should probably start with a friendly nations that borders us. We might not have enough certified teachers yet, we could try to import foreigners to teach here.
Or perhaps we could offer a work visa program which allows you to live here if you’re on a work visa teaching a desired foreign language.
Hester Sirocco-Loren (Juliette) — 11/12/2022 11:27
If foreign languages are to be part of the core curriculum, I believe it would be better that we simply call it Foreign Languages, and allow schools and the Ministry of Education to further define the languages they might suggest as languages to be taught, rather than encode specific languages in legislation. Thoughts?

The funding in this bill will naturally also be used by schools to hire teachers, we do also have a visa program already (in fact written by our current Chancellor when he was Minister of Revenue and Treasury, under Chancellor Barber, see: Skilled Workers Incentive Scheme) that prioritises the teacher shortage.
The Ministry of Education is also seeking to reform tertiary education (OOC: soon), which will also have an impact on teachers being trained - though not an immediate impact.
Aaron Tonnesen - New Asden — 11/12/2022 11:29
I agree. Usually, schools/school districts/states dictate what language classes are available anyways, depending on who is eligible to offer the classes. I also like the idea of using the skilled worker's incentive for foreign language teachers.
Erich Crysler -- Alsozar [UKN] — 11/12/2022 11:29
I agree with giving schools freedom in defining what foreign languages they want to teach.
Patrick Barber
OP

— 11/12/2022 11:30

different provinces of the nation may have more or less strong economic ties with other nations, so it makes sense to leave that decision to local authorities.
Joshua Lopez - Slatium — 11/12/2022 11:31
There really are no flaws here, this is an easy approval from me.
Hester Sirocco-Loren (Juliette) — 11/12/2022 11:33
Great okay I'll be adding to the b ill soon:
- Foreign languages to the core curriculum
- Explicit article to reppeal the old schools act
Erich Crysler -- Alsozar [UKN] — 11/12/2022 11:33
Alright, thank you for adding my suggestion. It seems this bill has near unanimous approval.
Hester Sirocco-Loren (Juliette) — 11/12/2022 11:34
I'm glad of it, cross bench support is possible in Kodiak ;)
Aaron Tonnesen - New Asden — 11/12/2022 11:34
One minor question: Does the bill mention school transportation?
Erich Crysler -- Alsozar [UKN] — 11/12/2022 11:34
My Better Bus Act in the queue addresses this
As well as the wider bus infrastructure
Hester Sirocco-Loren (Juliette) — 11/12/2022 11:34
It does not, however school transportation could be something that a school can use the money to invest in.
Aaron Tonnesen - New Asden — 11/12/2022 11:35
Noted. Thanks for clarifying.
Klaus Mikaelson — 12/12/2022 03:15
In addition to foreign languages, might I suggest that sign language is also added to the curriculum?
Erich Crysler -- Alsozar [UKN] — 12/12/2022 03:17
Perhaps sign language will be counted as a foreign language?
Klaus Mikaelson — 12/12/2022 03:18
but it's not "foreign" it's something that people both at home and abroad use. and while learning another language so that you might use it one day on vacation or for a business trip is nice, many people at home are ostracized because almost nobody knows how to sign and communicate with them. That's why I think it needs to be separately mentioned.
Erich Crysler -- Alsozar [UKN] — 12/12/2022 03:21
That doesn't really make it not "foreign" but I see your point. I think sign language should at least be an elective option if not mandatory.
Aaron Tonnesen - New Asden — 12/12/2022 04:00
I’m not trying to sound like snob, but how important would sign language really be? It may be a waste of taxpayer dollars. I think it could be added as an elective, provided by the school
Klaus Mikaelson — 12/12/2022 05:31
Ask the millions of people on the deaf community how important it is
They can’t choose to speak another language, it’s all they have. And by not teaching it to students, we are doing a disservice to the entire nation.
Gustave Bernier (Generation.e) — 12/12/2022 07:45
I'd be in favor of awareness campaigns and promoting sign language as an option, not as a mandatory course
Klaus Mikaelson — 12/12/2022 14:05
I do not find that acceptable.
it's long past time for the deaf community to be brought in out of the cold
Patrick Barber
OP

— 12/12/2022 14:07

If we make language acquisition compulsory, could we legislate that locals may choose what languages to provide, but that all high schools must provide KSL as an option?
would that be an acceptable compromise?
Klaus Mikaelson — 12/12/2022 14:08
for me it would be, yes.
Hester Sirocco-Loren (Juliette) — 12/12/2022 16:20
Does this compromise suit those that raised objections?
I do think it beneficial to introduce KSL to schools, and the suggested compromise by President Barber seems prudent for the time being. I agree that the Deaf community ought to not be considered second class citizens because of minority status. Having the option for learning KSL available could be beneficial especially for families that need it.
Geo (Piehu) — 15/12/2022 05:14
Just some suggestions that I think would be better

1) This law applies quite a lot of restrictions on private and public schools alike but none on Edutech sector and Tution sector, which would actually see a growth when such a law is implemented, banning tution, edutech would actually back fire by reducing jobs in economy so maybe include reasonable legislation on those too

2) Class size limits, it's well known that smaller class sizes make for better education experience and development, so I propose a class limit of 20, which may not apply to the online class lecture since that's the whole point of one, to reach as many people as possible.

3) Using strictly physical education as the only education there can be isn't so good either, a building is more costly than just getting all the students a useable Chromebook for classes on which they can take lectures and listen to old ones and get their assignments done. Quite a lot of the provisions gloss over virtual or online teaching as non existent TBF. While also emphasizing enrolment at local catchment when we can just use technology to deliver nation's best teachers, scientist's classes to an ever increasing crowd of students, at best the building is most suitable for other school activities and lab practical, competitions. Plus online there's no issue of capacity. As for a child's queries they can be forwarded to the department of the subject to be answered or just be sent over to a chatbot AI which can answer it properly, like ChatGPT but for education system ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

We should probably allow for more integration of educational technology in Institutions and make legislations accordingly so that legislation is in line with the tech instead of playing game of catch up
Geo (Piehu) — 15/12/2022 05:31
4) Licencing over such vast region as Kodiak will not really be an effective method either, irl it didn't work out in India due to it's sheer scale, I know it's rp but we can try not to get out of touch with ground realities of similar operations. Decentralisation also comes in handy in many things ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

5) Some nations have different school year stages like in Piehu it is 2+4+4+2
Pre school(2 years), 1-5, 6-10, 11-12

Which I think is kinda better than the system given in legislation
Plus shifting the whole education system schedule would be realistically speaking too expensive to do and would create chaos in management and everything else alongside it for quite a while which defeats the purpose of the law so maybe some flexibility regarding the school year make-up and other stuff
Aaron S. Barcka (UKN) — 15/12/2022 05:58
Here for school we basically do it like Pre School is basically Pre Nursuery which is from ages 1-3 or 2-3
After that we have Nursurey which is basically like our Year 1
Geo (Piehu) — 15/12/2022 06:03
I see
Klaus Mikaelson — 15/12/2022 08:32
A class size of 20 simply isn’t realistic in many school districts
Phil Kirk (Tecianad. Isl.) [NUP] — 15/12/2022 08:33
Maybe 24/25?
Erich Crysler -- Alsozar [UKN] — 15/12/2022 08:38
I'd say 30 is a good cut off point
Luik Oule - Kallamaya [KWP] — 15/12/2022 10:39
I know it may not be realistic for many school districts, but 30 or even 25 seems like a pretty big class size to me..
Patrick Barber
OP

— 15/12/2022 10:40

ultimately class size will be determined by funding availability and choices made by the school administration. We could legislate a size maximum but it would be a little bit like legislating the weather.
the better option, which is partly what this bill seeks to do, is increase funding across the board, not find regulatory gotchas like "smaller class sizes"
Klaus Mikaelson — 15/12/2022 11:45
that's still unrealistic
Aaron Tonnesen - New Asden — 15/12/2022 12:28
Most classes, at least in my area, have 25 students. Maybe 28 would be a good maximum. But I agree with Rykk, this isn’t a main priority in the bill, and should just be assumed or determined by local funding.
Klaus Mikaelson — 15/12/2022 13:34
Not all areas are as fortunate. I see classes anywhere from 5 students to 35
Erich Crysler -- Alsozar [UKN] — 15/12/2022 13:39
I just realized, since we are lacking education professionals, if admission is above such a regulatory mark would we deny them admission?
Hester Sirocco-Loren (Juliette) — 15/12/2022 13:44
1) This law applies quite a lot of restrictions on private and public schools alike but none on Edutech sector and Tution sector, which would actually see a growth when such a law is implemented, banning tution, edutech would actually back fire by reducing jobs in economy so maybe include reasonable legislation on those too

I'm not familiar with the term Edutech institutions, would appreciate someone explaining what the equivalent is. Assuming the second being Tuition/private tutoring classes etc, this bill doesn't ban them. They'd be considered a business and does not constitute primary/secondary school formal education.

RE: Class sizes


Agreed with the President, I think that is better managed by the schools themselves.

3) Using strictly physical education as the only education there can be isn't so good either, a building is more costly than just getting all the students a useable Chromebook for classes on which they can take lectures and listen to old ones and get their assignments done. Quite a lot of the provisions gloss over virtual or online teaching as non existent TBF. While also emphasizing enrolment at local catchment when we can just use technology to deliver nation's best teachers, scientist's classes to an ever increasing crowd of students, at best the building is most suitable for other school activities and lab practical, competitions. Plus online there's no issue of capacity. As for a child's queries they can be forwarded to the department of the subject to be answered or just be sent over to a chatbot AI which can answer it properly, like ChatGPT but for education system ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

How a school chooses to deliver classes, or how they use technology is up to them. Not for the Government to dictate.


4) Licencing over such vast region as Kodiak will not really be an effective method either, irl it didn't work out in India due to it's sheer scale, I know it's rp but we can try not to get out of touch with ground realities of similar operations. Decentralisation also comes in handy in many things ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


Licensing is essential to ensuring that the quality of private education institutions actually are delivering to a standard (hopefully exceeding it). It's akin to registering a business - it would be highly unmanageable if there wasn't some way to register and permit this. You can't simply start a school and start educating pupils without authorisation or recognition by the Ministry of Education.

5) Some nations have different school year stages like in Piehu it is 2+4+4+2
Pre school(2 years), 1-5, 6-10, 11-12


Kodiak in this polsim/govsim side of the region is the only nation, and we're all representatives of constituencies within Kodiak. This part of the game is actually separate from the NS RP side. Happy to answer more about this in the lobby if you like, it's a common misconception for sure!
John Edwards [KWP] — 15/12/2022 19:03
What is Edutech?
Geo (Piehu) — 15/12/2022 19:07
Edutech or Edtech is short for education technology, refers to new technological implementations in the classroom. In-classroom tablets, interactive projection screens and whiteboards, online content delivery, and MOOCs are all examples of EdTech.
It is the combined use of computer hardware, software, and educational theory and practice to facilitate learning.
Hester Sirocco-Loren (Juliette) — 15/12/2022 19:08
Okay thanks, didn't know that was what they were called these days! Those wouldn't be banned by this act.
This act doesn't dictate how education is to be delivered, but focuses on ensuring that everyone can obtain an education without undue fees (the purpose of state schools funding).
Geo (Piehu) — 15/12/2022 19:09
My point was that tuition and edutech are not regulated by this bill at all which is a negative given that both are known for poor work and study environment and cramped facilities which is something the bill seems to try to tackle
Those may be businesses but should be treated similarly to private schools, save for some exceptions in edtech obviously
If we were to just regulate schools but not the tuition, it risks putting away all the ills from school to tuition, which is just shifting the problem not solving it
Geo (Piehu) — 15/12/2022 19:12
Rest all i understand and agree to , sry about the misunderstanding
Geo (Piehu) — 15/12/2022 19:13
Case in point south korea, india etc
Hester Sirocco-Loren (Juliette) — 15/12/2022 19:17
No problem at all, I definitely misunderstood your first point. This is why we have debates/discussion however :)

So my thinking of what distinguishes schools (including private schools) from a business giving tuition or extra tutoring, and non-standard sources of education like Edtech is that tuition and edtech does not earn you recognition/certify that you've received the requisite education that a school normally would (e.g., for a typical student - graduating high school, and what follows from there due to high school results).

Regulation of other sources of tuition and informal education (e.g., online/MOOCs that sell their own sorts of certification) could be examined but perhaps it deserves its own act if Kodiak is looking to regulate this industry? As it would be better if this reform focuses on schooling.
Geo (Piehu) — 15/12/2022 19:26
Albeit the tuition centers dont provide certifications but they do provide worse cramped facilities and add to mental stresses of students of all age groups, which i do find to be relevant to an education reform. In the nations mentioned my case in point, this is very true. Its imperative in my opinion that education reform should address this secondary source of stress and anxiety to students (which inevitably leaks into their performance in schooling and other areas of life), or atleast we can have it regulated in a separate act. Both ways is fine by me
John Edwards [KWP] — 15/12/2022 19:53
I take it that tuition centres are essentially businesses that sell "education" to supplement regular schooling? I ask as someone who has never heard of these before (currently googling desperately)
And discovering several in nearby suburbs. Fascinating.
Geo (Piehu) — 15/12/2022 19:56
Yes
They aren't regulated like schools
So u get stuff like 6 hours tution after school in india
Tution till 11pm in South Korea
Children skipping school to go to tuition instead
Having little to no social life
And struggling mentally
John Edwards [KWP] — 15/12/2022 20:12
It's interesting. I can see with our big education push the rise of these industries (although considering our teacher shortage they might struggle for staff). Some form of regulation may be required but considering the majority of the population are considered poor, I suspect it might be some time before these places are considered profitable enough to be viable.

This feels like something that would benefit from it's own legislation if we want to impose regulations on the tutoring industry as it falls under business as well as education. @Geo (Piehu), I suggest putting together something with a list of what you would like to see, it can have a thread in the lobby for discussion and format before it is submitted as an actual bill, as you clearly have more experience in this area. Even if it is rough we are happy to go over it with you and make it workable.
Geo (Piehu) — 16/12/2022 01:18
Okay

I will do once my ongoing exams end
Hester Sirocco-Loren (Juliette) — 16/12/2022 21:26
I support this idea, and look forward to seeing the proposal in future!

Okay I'll update regarding KSL (Kodiak Sign Language) in the meantime. Please discuss if anything else the esteemed GA would like to discuss (or motion a vote if you do not believe there is anything else to cover).
Luik Oule - Kallamaya [KWP] — 17/12/2022 13:42
Seeing the widespread acceptance of this proposal, I would like to motion for an early vote.
Patrick Barber
OP

— 17/12/2022 13:43

A motion made - I will allow 24 hours for any objections to a vote. A second would be appreciated
John Edwards [KWP] — 17/12/2022 13:45
Seconded
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— 18/12/2022 18:26

Question
Do you approve of the Kodiak Education Reforms, 649?

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Patrick Barber
OP

— 18/12/2022 18:26

@Assembly Member
Debate is now suspended. The poll to approve the Kodiak Education Reforms, 649 is now available for 72 hours.